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From	Message
mrmarmalade 02-Aug-12, 06:21	Affiliation: Is there a reliable litmus test to determine ones ideology? I find myself often leaning in both directions. Am I centrist... confused? I'm actually quite serious. Perhaps someone can provide a series of questions/explanations, links OR lectures on the subject. Or perhaps someone would be kind enough just to offer some thoughts. Yours truly, Mr. M (New & Improved @ 33% more value than before.)
softaire 02-Aug-12, 06:46	mrm I'd say it is the "test of time". After some time, you should realize who you agree with mostly and who you disagree with mostly, in broad generalities. Personally I never agree with any one particular group always but I certainly do side with one group more than the others. So, "mostly" I have one ideology, but on some days, or some topics, I have another. For example, on Monday mornings I am usually aligned with "cranky", on Friday afternoons I am more of the "happy" ideology.
mrmarmalade 02-Aug-12, 07:06	"Personally I never agree with any one particular group always but I certainly do side with one group more than the others." -As I suspected... Thank you for clarifying.
thumper 02-Aug-12, 08:42	MrM I have my own ideology. Sometimes groups of people agree with me about a particular topic and sometimes they don't but other groups do.
deadofknight 02-Aug-12, 08:47	Never I believe that learning is a key element. The more you learn the better you understand the world. As you understand the world, your personal ethos will separate those things that you choose to align yourself from those that you do not. I believe to align yourself with any one outside entity is simply foolish and demonstrates that your understanding of the world is limited and controllable. We are all limited and controlled to an extant. But to be more limtied than we should be is foolish. We should not agree with any person all the time, nor they with us. DoK
mrmarmalade 02-Aug-12, 09:01	Follow up question: What exactly does it mean to be either Liberal or Conservative in 2012? I notice that these two adjectives are used interchangeably with 'Democrat and Republican' in some of the clubs here.
deadofknight 02-Aug-12, 12:46	R's and D's Republicans and Democrats are both members of an evolving party based on the issues of the day. Conservatives are trying to preserve values that they feel they have cultivated and want to hold onto. Liberals are looking to create a new sense of values that is more appropriate for today. That is how I see the difference, not mentioning which is good or bad. Just saying. As far as choices go, it is a rare thing in American politics to press for a third choice. Conservatives seem to have been more ready to split their vote amongst more than one party then Liberals--in a meaningful way. The Tea Party, whether you love them, hate them or find them simply interesting is a very successful coaltion of Conservatives that are Constitutionally minded and more conservative than Republicans. They have had a broad impact on poltics over the last four years. We don't see Liberals splitting their vote that way. Just my opinions… DoK
illinawek 02-Aug-12, 14:51	I think that being liberal is to believe the possibility of improving people's life through the actions of Government. Conservatives tend to think this is not a possibility, or they don't trust it, or something like that (I consider myself a liberal).
softaire 02-Aug-12, 15:09	illi I admire that view of being a liberal. To me, while that is the ideal view, it seems that is not what "liberals" have come to be. THAT is what they say, but that is not what they do. You are correct that most conservatives do not believe, any more, in the ability of government to improve any lives (except their own). Maybe this is just my own personal cynicism about government, be it Democrats or Republicans, but I have posted many discussions about how government is failing.
deadofknight 02-Aug-12, 15:17	Conservatives tend to believe that the government is in the way of them improving their own lives. They aren't sitting around waiting for the government to figure out how to do that for them. In the end, I am still looking for an example of someone that has led a great life because of government, not because of themself--aside from a politician! I can see why many liberals believe there is a possibility to have their life improved by someone else…but it is kind of wishful thinking. Government around the world makes things mediocre at best. DOK
aussiespud 02-Aug-12, 16:14	"Show me a young Conservative and I'll show you someone with no heart. Show me an old Liberal and I'll show you someone with no brains." Often attributed to Winston Churchill. , The phrase originated with Francois Guisot (1787-1874): "Not to be a republican at twenty is proof of want of heart; to be one at thirty is proof of want of head." It was revived by French Premier Georges Clemenceau (1841-1929): "Not to be a socialist at twenty is proof of want of heart; to be one at thirty is proof of want of head." ref: Wiki
illinawek 02-Aug-12, 18:39	DOK I don't want to sound like a broken record but.... If you go out and buy a Bentley or a Cadillac or a Hummer, you need a road to drive it on. If you want to hire a skilled worker, you needed a teacher somewhere to teach them how to do their jobs. If you want to catch a flight to go check on your Swiss bank account, you need an air traffic controller to make sure your flight leaves safely. Obama is right: "You.... you didn't build that." So the next time you daydream about how much you could buy at the mall if you didn't pay any taxes, give a thought to the roads you drive on, the credit card you used, or the cash you spent and remember that you needed Government for all of those things.
mrmarmalade 02-Aug-12, 18:40	My guess is that the way of life in which pensions, insurance and raises are a thing of the past. Unions are breathing their last breaths... I find this terrifying. At the same time, I don't have one of these jobs so it really doesn't affect me in that personal of a way. I have some retired relatives, state employees, who are currently retired and living really nicely. I'm envious, but at the same time pissed off. I'm financing their retirement via steep taxes, transportation costs, etc. I would like some assurances of my own. It would be nice if I could focus on my own ends instead of theirs. Frequently, I wish I had taken the same route and played it safe. Becoming a cop in Long Island is like hitting the jackpot; save the bravery lecture for someone else. Is it possible for this to have a happy ending?
mrmarmalade 02-Aug-12, 18:57	Scratch that last question, I don't want an answer. Here is what I would like; an even playing field. People claim they want that, but I mean it. You fight for yourself and I'll fight for myself. If public unions mean I have to finance a convenient way of life for a third party, then screw em. When I receive this same consideration, I'll reconsider. As a former school teacher, I was never drug tested. I just had to take one to work for the friggin' PGA as an engineer. I'm an independent contractor. I have NO assurances or guarantees that make me sleep well at night. I resent giving others a good night sleep at my cost. I really do.
mrmarmalade 02-Aug-12, 21:18	Let me take this a step further since I'm still awake. I've actually testified in federal court on behalf of a union. I'm not getting too specific as this is public knowledge and can be easily obtained with some homework. Yes, Mr. M was a victim of union busting. We won a lawsuit via the NLRB in large part to my testimony. I am mentioned prominently in the verdict. Hopefully, I have a large settlement coming after appeals and delays are worked out. Since many feel as if unions are there to protect "the working man," I can attest to other. My sources tell me that the union is holding up a settlement. Instead of accepting cash buyouts for our "suffering," the union is making ANY effort to block these compensatory damages and insist on reinstatement; union dues resumed. So, anyone who wants to challenge my allegiances can move along. I fought that fight. You have not. Ya'll only talk about it.
softaire 02-Aug-12, 21:51	illi I don't want to sound like a broken record either, but government should not be getting kudos for accomplishing SOME of the projects that we have been paying them to do for decades. That is a big deal? (that is their job... it is no big deal) When they start using our money effectively and efficiently, getting rid of the waste, fraud and abuse, and when Congress starts living by the same rules they make for us... THEN, maybe, I will be a little satisfied. Until then, WE have made our successes and WE have made our businesses. Government is HINDERING the country from being more successful. The proof of that will be in the morning jobs report for July. I am expecting to hear that claims for unemployment "unexpectedly" jumped again. The economy is in the tank... because of government, not because of businessmen.
deadofknight 02-Aug-12, 21:53	Wow... we got a real man in the house. Anybody want to argue philosophy can argue it. This guy is arguing facts. DoK
deadofknight 02-Aug-12, 21:58	AS for the building that argument please tell me that you don't sleep at night hoping that someone else is building something for you. Obama is wrong. He has the chicken before the egg. Roads came as a result of businesses that built cars. Gov't didn't build roads for Henry Ford to take advantage of… That story is the American story. Government doesn't do jack for people. It taxes us. We build stuff. It does nothing…but provide common defense; which liberals are dismantling as we speak. Sadly. DoK
thumper 03-Aug-12, 09:19	But hey DOK, it sounds like wisdom to their ears. They believe the argument clever and supportive of their preconceived notion so naturally they jump on the bandwagon to support a variation of their beloved, 'It takes a village'. It sounded good in the focus group! Mix a warm and fuzzy half truth with a lie, throw in some wishful thinking and a little deception and you have their battle plan.
illinawek 03-Aug-12, 13:24	You guys would benefit from a trip to Mexico. The richest man in the world lives there. Some of the richest people in the World live there. The Government doesn't do anything for anyone. There isn't any middle class. Its the model Republicans are striving for.
mrmarmalade 03-Aug-12, 13:58	Which guys are you referring to?
illinawek 03-Aug-12, 14:37	Thumper DOK and Softie
mrmarmalade 03-Aug-12, 14:39	Okay. Screw them. Thanks for clarifying.
mrmarmalade 03-Aug-12, 14:56	Softaire is to be sent to Mexico @ 04:00 hrs. Thumper to Somalia @ 05:00. DOK to Columbia @ 05:30 -And there will be the peace.
softaire 03-Aug-12, 14:57	illi I think you are confused about the similarities. Mexico had (has?) one of the most corrupt governments in the world for, at least, as long as the PRI Party was in power. That is what comes from one party rule. And, you are correct that they didn't do anything for the people... there was/is virtually no middle class. The U.S. Democrats are trying every which way possible to become the one party rule over America. They are buying voters by buying unions, buying illegal aliens, buying dead voters along with getting cats and dogs to vote. They are denying, as we speak, Florida to purge their voter roles for this very reason. The U.S. government has become so corrupt, over the last several decades, that you can see we are rapidly heading to that rich and poor nation, without a middle class, just like Mexico. THAT is not solely a Democrat problem... it is a "politician" problem. If the government is not simply corrupt, then it is extremely inefficient, ineffective and wasteful. It is so much so that we are becoming Greece. And, the policies of this current administration are exacerbating the problem tremendously. NO... nobody here wants our government to be like Mexico, but that is where it is headed and where we have been headed for years now. We need to break out of this and establish a true government of, by and for the people... not for the government.
softaire 03-Aug-12, 15:00	mrm That is way too early on a Saturday morning for me to be going anywhere. But if you are talking Margaritas at the Acapulco Hotel on Acapulco Beach, I might make an exception!
thumper 03-Aug-12, 15:27	I've been to Mexico a few times. I've learned that I can outrun the police when put to it and that it takes several hundred dollars worth of cash and jewelry to get the police captain to release your buddy who couldn't. It seems (to me) that the government down there preys on the people. More a liberal ideology than conservative it seems.
illinawek 03-Aug-12, 15:38	Police are paid very little there. They are expected to "supplement" their income. Putting private business sense into Government is a big Romney selling point. Mexico is at the cutting edge.
deadofknight 03-Aug-12, 16:09	Haha As far as we can see, it is Obama that has been inviting the Mexicans into this country and then inviting them onto our food stamps, in spanish, while meeting with their government about how to increase food stamp enrollment. All this while walking guns into their country illegally. And then putting our ICE patrols on hold in Arizona. Hmm…. Your guy is the one you are thinking of, I am quite sure.   DoK
changeling 03-Aug-12, 19:02	I read a lot of government bashing, Obama bashing, etc around here. I do not read any positive solutions for all these problems that have been caused by the 'left' in only the last three and a half years or so! Do posters from the 'right' actually have any solutions that does not include starving half the people in the US or denying health care to those who are not so fortunate (fro any reason). Dog eat dog is much of what I read. No compassion, no viable help, no community spirit. Oh I forgot, I'm a left wing liberal.
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