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From	Message
brigadecommander 20-Mar-13, 04:56	6...Rh7. 7.Qxe4 . Black is now a full Piece down.
stalhandske 20-Mar-13, 05:07	black moves black moves 7....Kh8
brigadecommander 20-Mar-13, 06:18	7...Kh8. 8.h5
stalhandske 20-Mar-13, 06:20	black moves 8.....gxh5
brigadecommander 20-Mar-13, 06:30	8...gxh5. 9.Ne2
stalhandske 20-Mar-13, 06:58	black black moves 9.....Rdxd7
stalhandske 20-Mar-13, 07:00	if white moves 10. Rxd7 black moves 10...Rxd7
brigadecommander 20-Mar-13, 07:13	9...Rdxd7. 10.Rxd7 Rxd7 11.Nf4
stalhandske 20-Mar-13, 07:22	black black moves 11.....Qc6
stalhandske 20-Mar-13, 07:24	conditional: if white moves if white moves 12. Rxh5+ then black moves 12....Kg8
stalhandske 20-Mar-13, 07:28	Black is no longer down in material, but black's position is admittedly still inferior. However, not to the extent of doom or catastrophy. I sincerely think this position is still playable for black. Objective opinions from viewers would be much appreciated!
ptitroque 20-Mar-13, 08:28	"objective opinion" It's very hard (at least for me) to predict what will happen in such an open endgame with few pawns and 3 pieces. White pawn structure is better and white can probably prevent the black king to come in the center. White has a knight and Black a bishop which is, in my opinion, an advantage in this type of situation. I cannot find any quick mating sequence for white but it doesn't mean there is none. At my level, anyway, a mistake in this kind of situation is so easily made that I wouldn't submit.
ptitroque 20-Mar-13, 08:36	"objective opinion" (conclusion) Black has at least fair chances to obtain a draw.
stalhandske 20-Mar-13, 08:40	@ptitroque Thanks for the comment! I very much agree, especially with the concept that *very* small mistakes in this kind of position would tip the win one way or the other.
brigadecommander 20-Mar-13, 09:09	12.Rxh5ch Kg8 13.Qf5
brigadecommander 20-Mar-13, 09:27	i still maintain white wins and i stand by it.
stalhandske 20-Mar-13, 15:14	white wins? I don't think the fundamental question here is whether white or black wins, but rather whether black had *reasonable* chances to a win (or to a draw) after 14. Nf6, which is where black (brigadecommander) gave up. My claim was not that black wins after 14. Nf6, but that black had quite reasonable chances of counter-play, which I think I have already demonstrated at this point.
ptitroque 20-Mar-13, 15:26	black wins ? I have to agree with stalhandske (although it obliges me to disagree with my mentor Brigadecommander, I apologise and thank her for her usefull lessons). The situation was almost equal and after, it depends on the lines you follow. Against another player less skilled or less inspirate (I'm not sure that it's the proper term in english), black could well obtain a draw or win.
stalhandske 20-Mar-13, 15:28	white wins? for the viewer: The major point is that brigadecommander and stalhandske are exploring whether or not brigadecommander's "folding her cards" at move 14 was justified or not.
stalhandske 20-Mar-13, 15:42	@ptitroque You are lucky having one of the best mentors in this Club! brigadecommander's games against grandmasters on this site are truly worth studying! She overwhelms them with great success. However, she won't fool this old warrior ....unless she manages to use her charm, which is considerable
ptitroque 20-Mar-13, 15:55	black wins , (@stalhadske) Yes and that's why it interest me. The point where you submit (or, if you choose to carry on, beeing persuaded to lose which leads to the same point : you loose anyway) is an important part of the game, at least it seems to me but it's a new subject of thought for me, so that I'm not sure of the importance of it but I've the impression that the simple fact that I thought about it has somehow improve my games (it's hard to explain in english, I'm not sure to be very clear). Thanks for this game anyway, it corresponds to my preoccupation of the moment. (in fact, short and simple is often (allway ?) clearer but it's still another matter, probably also interresting to study in chess but one problem after the other).
klauno 20-Mar-13, 16:51	Perhaps draw for black, not more Hello, i believe White has more Chances to win this game. I try to explain the reasons : 1. The white king is more sure than the black one. 2. The pawn on f6 from black is weak. 3. White has more active moves than black, black has to play the defense, white plays the offense. In the practical black has to save his f pawn. First he can put his Queen on d6, to thread Mate on d1. On nearly all other moves from black white can force his advantage with Ng6 ! Only after Pawn moves, for example a6, white can play a pawn,too perhaps a3. After that White has the Chances to put the Night on very good squares, d5,e6,g6 On all this squares black can´t attack the bishop with his Night ! On Qd6 White has the move Nd5, it saves the king and attack the f pawn ! Bg7 will save the pawn. But the black bishop has no squares, which he can affect to. All Pieces are equal, only the bishop and the night and the pawns make the different. White can play a pawn forward, no problem, its for the endgame. Black can´t avoid that white is getting a free pawn on a or b or c line. Kb1 before makes this more sure. If Black trys to attack the White king, White can Change the pieces or more good, attack the black King. In the end the better pawn and the better Night can perhaps decide the game ? It is difficult for black to play very exactly for holding the draw, but perhaps possible ! Klaus
stalhandske 20-Mar-13, 23:49	Thanks! Black plays 13....Qd6 Thanks to klauno for his insightful analysis. If white plays 14. Nd5 (as klauno suggests), then black replies with 14....Bg7 (à la klauno). Perhaps, it is time to stop this analysis here? My conclusion is that brigadecommander was correct in that white's chances to win after move 14 of the original game were considerable, but that black still had a number of opportunities at that point. I think the above analysis has proven the latter to be true.
jotheblackqueen 21-Mar-13, 00:47	So, the final verdict! Hi everyone! An interesting game (termination after just 14 moves) and post-match analysis. The resignation by Janet (who thought she might be faced with a positional disadvantage leading to ruinous loss of material) turned out to be premature! It always pays to have that one last look over the board before toppling your king! Kind regards Joanne
stalhandske 21-Mar-13, 02:45	"premature resignation" This - I think - is an issue that is very personal! If you feel that you don't have sufficient chances to win, or even draw, in a certain position, then the question is whether to resign or to play "to the bitter end" (provided the end really WILL be bitter!). As already said, this kind of decision is PERSONAL/INDIVIDUAL, and probably very different from one player to another. At any rate, such a decision should be honoured as correct whenever the player is of that opinion. On my part, now in retrospect I'll have to admit that brigadecommander's resignation at move 14 makes a lot of sense! I may well have folded myself, too in that position - just out of sheer disgust at the poor possibilities for black at that stage. The crux of this matter is whether or not black could have won. I think we'll never know
brigadecommander 21-Mar-13, 04:27	Concession. I concede that blacks resignation was premature.
ptitroque 21-Mar-13, 05:05	Resignation The decision has also to do with the strenght of the opponent you face and even, may be, on the fun you have to play a game with such or such position and also with the importance you give to the win (in final of a tournament, one could try to win even with 10% chances ?) I agree with Joanne that it's very personnal. Thanks for this game to both players anyway.
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