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From	Message
geniusacamel 15-Jul-14, 10:26	Deleted by alex_ratchkov on 18-Jul-14, 20:58.
archduke_piccolo 18-Jul-14, 23:29	Can someone tell me... ...What is going on between jkarp and geniuscamel? I find it hard to believe Joe has done or said anything that would justify his dismissal from the club; and find it equally difficult to credit that any of the club's moderators would do so for anything but a serious misdemeanour. For mine, I would welcome Joe back into this club at any time. But if something comes to light that indicates a different view, I am open to persuasion. If the matter is personally sensitive to one or other of the parties, then perhaps the matter - whatever it is - ought to be placed before Gameknot for adjudication. I do not want to see club members removed for insufficient reason; no more will I object if the case is deserving of such treatment.
brigadecommander 18-Jul-14, 23:34	i to demand an answer Personal deputes do not empower moderators to throw people out of the club for no reason.Any infraction of gameknot rules in other clubs or other forums is up to gameknot to resolve, A moderator in this club as one job...to moderate this club and nothing else. And I see no rules of behavior broken by jkarp in 'THIS' Club. I call for the immediate reinstatement of jkarp.
stalhandske 18-Jul-14, 23:42	Answer geniusacamel has badly misused his administrator's rights. I am not going to look at this on/off action (of which administrators get a copy of) any longer and I suggest that geniusacamel be rejected as administrator.
elenapetrova 18-Jul-14, 23:50	I cannot believe that a moderator remove one because of his personal disagreements! I have the utmost confidence that Joanne will do what 'is more appropriate.
dynamic-dv 18-Jul-14, 23:50	Me Too.... I totally agree. This guy seems to just delete any post or thread he doesn't agree with, not to mention removing members he disagrees with. At the very least he should have his status downgraded to member and Joe reinstated in my view!
brigadecommander 18-Jul-14, 23:50	I agree perhaps mr geniuscamel made a bad error in Judgment. Obviously he is not up to the job as moderator. I am not calling for him to be thrown out of the club (like he callously did to jkarp),no!! but i do think he should step down as moderator till he understands what the job entails, That is the fair way of handling this.
archduke_piccolo 19-Jul-14, 01:28	I think... ,,, before we make any judgements or decisions, it might be well to wait a bit until we discover whether there is more behind than what we are seeing, see whatever might emerge from all this over the next day or so, and perhaps allow feelings - and hence decisions or judgements - to cool a little. I feel sorry for Joe, though at least he will have a kind of proxy connexion for the time being through our present WtW game. I have a selfish reason for regretting what has happened, too. It probably will mean the demise of the Mentor Group I game, as Joe was just about one of the last two or three members participating. That the game has gradually turned against the team probably hasn't encouraged many players' enthusiasm for continuing. There has been no action there for 3 days now. I'll leave it a while, and if nothing further happens, will count it as a Black win, and annotate it as promised. As for geniuscamel, for the moment I am assuming he acted as he thought in a manner appropriate to the circumstances as he saw them. From what I've been reading in this forum so far, no one is imputing any motive on his part other than overzealousness. It seems to me that perhaps for a day or so at least we should wait and see what time will reveal. Cheers, Ion
stalhandske 19-Jul-14, 01:38	I disagree with Ion's kind view. Removing someone from the club without giving reasons is bad enough. Repeating it over and over after the member has been accepted back by others, is worse. And finally, please note how said member has deleted posts by other moderators, who have commented on the case! That is outrageous behavior in my opinion, and should minimally lead to loss of moderator status. A moderator has responsibilities that clearly have not been fulfilled in this case.
dynamic-dv 19-Jul-14, 01:43	@archduke_piccolo Whether Joe has broken any club rules or not is not the point, to take the heavy handed approach he did is just not on! at the most you would expect a moderator to do is report the misdemeanor to the club founder for them to take the appropriate action in the matter. I think personally you would have to look closely at Joe's Team where he used to be a member and isn't anymore. Did he leave or was he pushed! Food for thought at least. Dave....
stalhandske 19-Jul-14, 01:48	@archduke Just to verify what I mentioned earlier: gameknot.com gameknot.com @Dave: I do not think that anything that has happened in a Team has relevance with respect to membership in this club. The key is breaking rules of THIS CLUB, or not!
dynamic-dv 19-Jul-14, 01:54	@stalhandske My point exactly!! I was just surmising that it is a possibility that is where the trouble started and nothing to do with our club!!
itchynscratchy 19-Jul-14, 02:14	Removing a member from the club should not be a unilateral decision except in the most obvious cases (racist comments for instance). I had assumed this would be obvious, but perhaps moderator decisions need to be more codified. Geniusacamel should certainly explain himself, he might be justified, but right now I can't find anything to suggest what has triggered the actions. Also lets keep profanity out of this, if only to take the moral high ground and to prevent te deletion of criticism being any way justified.
dynamic-dv 19-Jul-14, 02:15	This is a Guy that has reported me to GK for undeleting my OWN thread. What a Plonker!! It is he that should be reported to GK!! Just look at his Stats! has been a member of GK for less than 2 months. played 73 games Won 70 and lost 0! Has a time / move circa 10 mins! Is either super human or has a silicon Brain! I leave it to you to decide..........................
archduke_piccolo 19-Jul-14, 03:14	It's not for us... ... to decide. If you have suspicions, and grounds for them, you know what to do about it. Look, I'm not altogether unbiased in this matter, and would rather see Joe reinstated than not. But I have reason to believe this whole gig is now in the hands of Gameknot. Let it be decided there. What I'm looking at is a can of worms that I would be very reluctant myself to go anywhere near. @ dynamic_dv: it may be that more lines have been crossed than would make this a simple matter upon which to adjudicate. Fore instance, the second sentence of your last posting might, to a credulous mind, be regarded as abusive (of a third party), and hence perhaps in transgression of Gameknot's own rules. Now, me, I'm open to treating each situation on its merits, but another might be less ...erm ... generously disposed. Do you take my meaning? One person's minor infraction, barely registering as such, is another's major transgression. The difference is the more noticeable when one happens to be the topic of such abuse. I'm forming the impression that both principals (jkarp and geiusacamel) have overstepped the mark in some degree. It may well be they're not alone in this. My attitude is this. jkarp ought to be reinstated, conditional upon whatever may be found about what has led to this kerfuffle that might redound to his discredit sufficient to justify dismissal. It's the 'innocent until proven guilty' type of thing. But geniusacamel be afforded the same consideration and courtesy: that no further judgement, pronouncement or sentence be made upon him until more comes to light. I won't be altogether surprised if this approach isn't taken: feelings are running high. I imagine mine would be as well in different but similar circumstances. But that does not invalidate my suggestion: keep schtumm... and wait.
stalhandske 19-Jul-14, 03:25	Mystified I am afraid that I do not understand such a benign view. < I'm forming the impression that both principals (jkarp and geniusacamel) have overstepped the mark in some degree.> I would be interested in knowing on what basis (other than the action by geniusacamel) one can arrive at the impression that jkarp has "overstepped the mark" (meaning, of course, the rules of this club because that is the only relevant matter here). Also, is it not quite obvious that the other party has done so? 1) giving no reasons to club members or fellow moderators for why a member is rejected 2) rejecting that club member repeatedly after other moderators have reinstated him 3) deleting threads/posts by fellow moderators (in at least two instances)
dynamic-dv 19-Jul-14, 03:32	I am glad to see I am not alone in my view on the matter! Well said stalhandske.
alex_ratchkov 19-Jul-14, 10:28	I agree... With stalhandske, dynamic_dv and brigadecommander. No single moderator, especially one that was just promoted to moderator status, should take it upon themselves to be the judge, jury and executioner in our club. Having a personal vendetta against jkarp does not give any validity to geniusacamel acting like a dictator and kicking him out of the club. And when other moderators tried to get jkarp back in, he kept undercutting us and kicking him back out! That is unacceptable behavior.
itchynscratchy 19-Jul-14, 11:53	This is getting ridiculous, moderator satus needs to be removed until the matter is resolved. Geniusacamel cannot continue to overrule other moderators without an explanation.
easy19 19-Jul-14, 12:08	It seems this is some personal vendetta And i do not like that this matter is fought out whit in the boundary's,s of this club. A club that is based on my idea,s and value,s I got a answer from Joe and i got no response from genius! so this is not in the line of how a player with the master status in this club should behave. - If Jkarp was wrong ore misbehaving at some point that is not the discussion here! Abusing moderator rights with no explanation is!
stalhandske 19-Jul-14, 13:18	Deletion Now he has also deleted David's (dynamic_dv) welcome post for jkarp! I think this is too much and I do not understand why Jo needs to consult GK in such a crystal clear case.
alex_ratchkov 19-Jul-14, 13:38	Petition to Jstevens Being a moderator is a privilege, NOT to be abused for one's personal vendetta. Please revoke geniusacamel's moderator status. This is a clear-cut case of abusing moderator powers. I am positive I am not the only one that feels this way
archduke_piccolo 19-Jul-14, 16:03	The case... ... is not as 'crystal clear' as it might seem. Not to me. I believe there is more behind than we know about, and until this comes to light, it ill behoves any of us to pass judgement. To reiterate: it the 'innocent until proven guilty' thing - but I am coming to the realisation that no one adheres to that principle any more. Look, my first reaction to this issue - coming into it fairly late with 17 club messages in my IN BOX - was no different from yours. It did seem to be a clear cut case of someone abusing newly obtained responsibility. But the more I looked into this, it just didn't stack up that way - at least, not quite. Am I expected to accept this is simply a case of a person allowing the moderator responsibility to go to his head and come down for no good reason on the first victim that came under his notice? Seriously? Nah... I can't do that, not once I've put some thought into it. Something was said and done, and neither principle is saying (in my view, to the credit of both of them) in this forum.
archduke_piccolo 19-Jul-14, 16:17	Oh, and... ... A few posts back, someone has insinuated that the results of geniusacamel's games aren't what you'd call kosher. If you got something, you got evidence of cheating, you take it to GK. Snide insinuations have no place in this club, and no place on GK. We all know where that can lead. I've taken it upon myself to check out geniusacamel's game history. What do we find? Just 4 games were played against players currently rated above 2000 (one was 1996 at the time). Results: 1 win (a very good one against blacklab) and 3 draws. Very good, but scarcely unprecedented, and who in any case can positively assert his real playing strength? The 'evidence' from geniusacamel's game history looks pretty damned skinny to me!
itchynscratchy 19-Jul-14, 16:19	Part of the problem here is the way these forums are set up. A moderation team have no way of communicating with each other collectively in private. If such a system existed geniusacamel might have been more inclined to offer an explanation. In addition, it is not possible for other mods to view deleted posts, meaning we have no clue if the rules have been followed or not. I believe Ion might have a point, things might be more complicated than we can see, perhaps if the other systems were in place we would have more ability to judge. Right now we should perhaps not jump to conclusions when we don't know all the facts.
archduke_piccolo 19-Jul-14, 16:33	Deleted by archduke_piccolo on 19-Jul-14, 16:43.
archduke_piccolo 19-Jul-14, 16:45	'Principal' Whoops: a horrible solecism. In my final paragraph (16:03 posting), I meant meant 'principal', not 'principle'. Gaaaaaaahhhh!!!
brigadecommander 19-Jul-14, 17:07	the case is clear If i were playing a Team match and i insult a person from another team, i cannot kick that person out of any club because of infractions during a team match.The proper procedure is to notify gameknot of the infraction. A moderator is not an employee of gameknot. He is employed exclusively in the Club he is in,by the founder, as a moderator. Same goes for being in multiple clubs. If i am in 'knights of honor club' and i get insulted by a person in the PPA club , i can't throw him out of KOH because of something he said to me in PPH. I have looked through all jkarps postings in our club.I cannot find any infractions of the rules.No where. It is immaterial to me if they had arguments in a team or any other club. I don't care if jkarp insulted the hell out of Mr genius while in any forum other then WWLR. Any other issue is up to gameknot. If he had insulted him while in this club i could understand . it would be up to the founder then to keep jkarp out or reinstate him.
andywm 19-Jul-14, 18:02	I don't mean to harp on this, but... I got a little tired of seeing all the posts by jkarp and geniusacamel so I emailed them. GC did give me an explanation and so did jkarp. One of those... he said, she said situations. They both appear young and their arguments are pure nonsense. They both need to be separated and as I told Joanne, just because someone has a >2000 rating, it should not qualify someone as a moderator. From what I know, the reasoning and responses of their views are childish and has no place in an open form with this or any other club. Some of the things I heard are puzzling and I'm sure GK does not want any part of this as well. Just 2 personalities that don't hit it off. Unless one has all the communication between these 2, one doesn't know how this started since I read different responses and not all was probably told. Regards, andy
alex_ratchkov 19-Jul-14, 18:06	Andy I concur with that assessment. I too think that having a rating of >2000 is not reason alone to be awarded with the moderator privileges. There definitely was a strong indication of childishness and immaturity from at least one of the two people involved in this conflict.
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