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tactical_abyss 27-Jan-13, 08:17	Trompowsky Attack Opening I'll keep this post open for anyone now or in the future for any discussions that arise on one of my most favorite openings....the Tromp.Opinions about the Tromp?Any success using it or defeat?I will get into the Tromp as time goes on,but you can read plenty of my regular GK chess related posts and game links about the Tromp by going to the google custom search bar under the GK forum list and type in gk/trompowsky attack.I probably have 4 or 5 long comments in various posts about this fine opening.
rmannstaedt 27-Jan-13, 08:43	I have never played the Trompowsky Attack myself, but I have played against it on a number of occasions, incl. once on GK vs. aramis (game, he was rated 1558 while I was 1659 at the time). It wasn't what I would call a flawless game ... but the way he handled the opening shows, I think, one of the issues you should be aware of when you play it: the bishop is "loose" and subject to attack.
tactical_abyss 27-Jan-13, 09:32	Ruben, Yes,many times the Bishop is on the loose,(depending upon which Tromp line you use)but I sort of compare it to a Ruy in the first few opening moves(a bit anyway)where white retreats his Bishop back after blacks pawns attack it....to a safety area on whites first few ranks. But in reality,there is actually no loose Bishop in a pure Trompowsky Attack!Now why is that? Well from a Trompowsky "purists"view,white must EXCHANGE his Bishop on g5 for Blacks Knight on f6!This creates the famed "doubled pawn"structure on Blacks F file.As one of my Tromp books states(The Trompowsky Attack,by Andrew Soltis GM)...."the capture on f6 is the only line true to the spirit of the Trompowsky,although there are some trappy lines to be found in some of the offshoots".Soltis goes on to mention the words..."played a pure Trompowsky Attack"and illustrates various games in his nice book. So games like: 1.d4,Nf6 2.Bg5,c5 3.Bxf6,gxf6 4.d5,Qb6 or like: 1.d4,Nf6 2.Bg5,d5 3.Bxf6,exf6 4.e3,c5 Both of these var lines are considered a "true purists Tromp",even though many other lines will be catagorized under the Tromp opening label....so then,no "loose"Bishop,just a captured one!! Here are 2 pure tromp games from my past game history.One is a win,the other a draw.... game game In that win with drhpatron,he admitted to me(at that time)that he was not very familiar with the Tromp,and got "lost"with my moves.I already had researched his past game history on GK regarding a Tromp which he did not have,so thats why I used it against him.I'm sure by now he is much better preparded for it now,however! As I stated in many other GK threads,the Tromp is a great tool for moving out of book quickly and is still evolving.Polgar used it alot in her games,and I have followed her history using this attack game and have won quite alot with it.
tactical_abyss 27-Jan-13, 09:42	Ruben, By the way,that was a nice tromp win on the black side! Thanks for sharing that game!I admit,i'm a Tromp junkie and my favorite attack game IS the Tromp!I prefer games that have more limited book lines than others,but thats me,not necessarily the next guy!
rmannstaedt 27-Jan-13, 09:44	I like "unusual" openings ... but I have never taken a shine to the Trompowsky. Probably because, when I first met it, I was delving into the King's Indian and I got all kinds of frustrated because I had a number of OTB opponents who refused to let me do that and played the Trompowsky against me instead. Really, really frustrating!   But I learned, playing those games, that the Trompowsky absolutely has to be met by energetic play, right from the start. That is very important. This is one opening where Black cannot sit back and just let things develop quietly!
tactical_abyss 27-Jan-13, 09:57	Yes,its not for everyone palate to play this type of game,and there is NOT alot written about it.I'll have to ask Shamash if he has any new Tromp book sources.Yes,black must be energetic most of the time,but there are "quieter"lines.Believe it or not Ruben,the Tromp is actually FEARED by many black players who desperately HOPE white does not employ it against them! Much of this is DUE to the"uncharted waters"(a term you will see me use alot)and the fear of opening to mid game strategy that some players know "inside"that they are a bit weak in,especially when they have no book lines from say,move # 8 or 10!
clippery 29-Jan-13, 11:11	blackgnik vs. theshandykid I have started to look into the Trompowsky and I have stumbled across a game " The Prairie" annotated by ionadowman gameknot.com . I haven't looked into it in any great detail yet but I thought this might be a useful place to start.
tactical_abyss 29-Jan-13, 16:22	A penny's worth of thought for now... I won't have alot of time to discuss the Tromp for a while yet,so I thought i'd list some books from my personal library that I own via links and paste and copy some things I said about the Tromp from past GK forum posts.The thing about any opening whether it be a Tromp or an English or other openings....you can only learn so much from books,forum comments and annotations.It really takes sometimes years to study and explore and attempt to master the inner long term positional strategies of these openings.One must look within themselves and first attempt to improve upon their own weakness's,oversights,tactical strengths and hone in upon one or two openings that they can become the "best"at.Sometimes by exploring opening like a Tromp,you end up playing "your"game,not some well established opening book game like a Ruy which many times uses a book line 30 moves long and then try to move.This is not the way to learn. A chess player must have the true passion and patience and be willing to burn the midnight oil to master an opening like a Tromp.or any other opening for that matter. Three pretty good books: www.amazon.com www.amazon.com www.amazon.com A few of my games: game game game game Some past forum remarks by me: Another tromp win.... Since this string is on the Tromp,I will occassionally post some of my finished Tromp games as above.Throughout my chess career,I have been very successful playing the so called "dreaded"Trompowsky Attack.I am playing a few right now,but can't speak of those.This one which just recently finished was against a strong master,who was doing fairly well up until a weakened and non properly supported pawn structure on blacks Queen side and exchanges from move #24.....quite early for a floor to begin to crumble on the master + level.But one of the keys in this game was to have a "free wheeling" connected Rook pair on the first rank which is usually a powerful combination for attack and defense and potential pressure on mid game central doubled pawns,as in slobodanmijic e4+e6 pawns. While 3.Bh4 has become a main line in many past games,I consider 3.Bf4! much more solid and whites initial Bishop retreat still maintains alot of uncharted and suprising flavor,yet still maintains solidity that is not present in other lines,whether known or unknown. The Tromp has what I deem as a "psychological"advantage many times over opponents,since position and tactics many times takes a turn down a "side road" away from well known book lines(and many times move out of book quicker than normal),and those strong players that have a positional "snapshot" in their mind about what they have been use to in a Queen pawn opening will simply dissolve very quickly...when I unleash my "pet"and are not fully prepared for it. In the game that I will post below,one note in 3.Bf4's advantage is that 3....g5 has not as much sting since white can play 5.Bc1 and can possibly win a pawn and some tempo with 5.f3.If black would have played more subtle with 3....e6,white can exploit the Knights position to gain some additional time with 4.f3 or 4.Nd2. game I have also has a good # of draws with the Tromp,but the good news is that I rarely lose with it.For that reason,it is my opinion that it is a good weapon to use against a stronger opponent even higher in rating than myself,and perhaps should be considered likewise on the lower rating levels under the same scenario. Keep in mind that the "true" and "pure"Tromps are usually characterized by the move 3.Bxf6,exf6 or 3.Bxf6,gxf6. Thats all for now.With some of ions great annotations,some of the books I mentioned and the comments,along with some of my game links I posted(which you can go through in time),this should help any tromp enthusiasts! TA
archduke_piccolo 31-Jan-13, 13:29	blackgnik vs theshandykid This was a ripper of a game: 90 moves of sheer entertainment. This is not a game to edify by the perfection of the play. Both sides make a lot of mistakes. But it because they were both playing to a purpose that they both create all sorts of chances, some fairly obvious, many of the sort you might not notice right off. Here's the link to the annotation with comments. You will find some extra interesting stuff in the latter. gameknot.com I sometimes think, you know, that a volume that contained some of these sorts of games would have at least as much, if not more, didactic value for players in their early development as a game between masters. The player of the Black pieces, by the way, is the son of an old chess-buddy of school days back in the '60s: known on GK as thejoxter.
tactical_abyss 01-Feb-13, 06:03	Great game above,ion!Thats why I wanted you in the club,because your annotations have always been top notch.Notice my game above IS the Tromp 3.Bf4 move.Actually,while it is NOT the most popular as you have stated,I have personally won more games with initiating 3.Bf4,then any other variation.The "purists"Tromps actually involves the early exchange of whites Bishop for blacks Knight,then doubling one of blacks file pawns on f6.This doubling effect,can,many times be the downfall for black later in the game,if he does not have the proper knowledge to protect an open file or utilize those doubled pawns properly. Again,what i'm trying to say is that it takes a certain type of player and a higher degree of "passion"to become proficient at an opening like the Tromp.It cannot simply be a "passing"fancy.One must be willing to really have a "sincere"interest in the Tromp and be willing to study for months or even years the various subvariations and unexplored areas that this opening creates.It really IS a fine opening and IS played on the GM level.The element of surprise value is key many times in lining up(preparing) the Tromp against "just the right"opponent!I cannot count how many opponents I have beaten with this opening,simply because it was a "new"type of game that my opponent was not used to playing,did not recognize the new piece patterns that develop from early on or even a different pawn chain configuration.Is it the strongest opening,with razor sharp moves and gambits?No,no,no!Its the type of game that takes on obscure,subtle type moves with many times a slow positional buildup.But then,it can also be over in less than 25 moves for the unprepared.So winning many times comes with opening that are less known,not necessarily"better",stronger or have the highest degree of statistical wins!Forget that way of thinking! In summary,it IS many times a psychological advantage to play this game against the unprepared,especially one that can move out of the books fairly quickly.My advice to any tromp "want to be's" is to buy a few books on the tromp and raise your awareness on the unusual first 10-15 moves that can surface and try them against an opponent that does not have a Tromp in their game history on GK.Experiment! Later in another post,i'm going to speak about a much weaker opening....The Basman Defense. But mainly as a weapon utilized in a different winning "form",mainly as a blitz weapon,not the long corresp game.But for now,I hope you readers atleast try out the tromp once in a while.You know,that Ruy,or Queens gambit declined can get alittle old and boring sometimes!Spice it up a bit,kick it up a notch!
archduke_piccolo 01-Feb-13, 11:34	Playing through the above games... ... two struck me as particularly remarkable. The game against slobodanmijic becomes a freewheeling melee across the whole board, with pieces broadcast all over the place. But what impressed me most was the situation that arose against b0bo after 48 moves: w (white to play) For the exchange, Black has two pawns, though it is immediately obvious that the b-pawn will soon fall. But so unpromising do White's pawns look, it is hard to see that he can make much progress. But watch the plan unfold, in which White tears Blacks pawn structure to shreds, and then goes after them once they are vulnerably isolated. I've seen footage of a (lone) wolf doing something like that with a herd of caribou. Remarkable. (Which reminds me, tactical_abyss: we'll have to start up a thread or two on endgames. Maybe three. I can think of 3 titles: Endgame technique (elementary and not so elementary technical points in endgames); Endgame studies (these are like puzzles, but take the form of 'White to play and win', or '...draw', and have no fixed number of moves), and 'Creativity in endgames' (which would be very like the thread I began a long time ago in the Chess forum). What do you think?)
tactical_abyss 01-Feb-13, 14:05	Yes,I expected more from Bobo in the endgame.Its my lesson that disconnected pawns or sometimes doubled pawns can have more of an endgame impact,especially with a connected Rook pair dominating the center. Endgame study sounds good to me,ion.Infact,it really should be one of the first things to look at,before openings anyway.I don't have alot of time right now,probably not for a few weeks,but you are welcome to start any endgame posts if you like.I may join in later,or you you can just wait a while,its up to you.I'm hoping for more members to the club to get more kickback in these threads anyway.
tactical_abyss 04-Feb-13, 23:56	another offshoot of the Tromp... Here is an interesting video on the Tromp/Vaganian Gambit.I have actually used this one in a recent 10 minute blitz game and have crushed opponents with that gambit pawn. Enjoy! www.youtube.com
shamash 13-Feb-13, 07:51	Bellin's "Trompowski" Not surprised to see Hodgson, Soltis, or Palliser on your list of Tromp books. Hodgson I enjoy for his coverage of attacking chess, Palliser on the Benoni, and Soltis most enduringly for his "Turning Advantage into Victory in Chess" (where for instance you will meet the concept of the "super-square".) Just wondering what you think of the pre-computer book on the Trompowsky by Robert Bellin, who is usually a pretty good teacher of chess.
rmannstaedt 13-Feb-13, 08:33	I haven't read the Palliser book on the Benoni. But I have two very good (pre-computer) books by Steffen Zeuthen: "Modern Benoni" and "Modern Benoni Dynamics". Highly recommended, despite their age ('73 and '76).
shamash 13-Feb-13, 09:19	Zeuthen's masterpiece yes Zeuthen's work is unique, sort of like a "Moby Dick" of the Ben-Oni
rmannstaedt 13-Feb-13, 09:39	Zeuthen Did you know, he also wrote - together with Danish GM Bent Larsen - a book on a "universel" chess opening system, based on the Grunfeld Indian (that should be a german u-umlaut, but the GK editor won't let me do that ...  ) structure: "Zoom 001 (Zero hour for Operating Opening Models)" ... I used it a bit, before I dropped chess entirely in favour of studies and jobs. Fascinating, I think, because the Grunfeld is so absolutely uncompromising in its way. But I didn't "convert" to it - enjoyed other openings, like the Benoni (and Pirc, which I played a lot at that time), too much.
shamash 13-Feb-13, 09:58	the Grünfeld oh I enjoy the Grünfeld, but am reluctant to wield it in going for the win in correspondence play.
rmannstaedt 13-Feb-13, 10:05	Ah, of course - html code! Thanks   May I ask - why not use the Grünfeld in correspondance play? I recognize I am not at your rating ... (yet, heh!) ... but surely you play for a win, always?
shamash 13-Feb-13, 10:19	winning with the Grünfeld, looking to replace the Caro to answer your question: it has been my experience -- and there are Grünfeld-ers with much much greater experience -- than in correspondence play, the Grünfeld offers White too much opportunity to equalize the position and create a draw. But what I would really like to find is an opening for Black against pawn to King four that offers all the flow of possibilities that the Queen's Gambit does, when I play White. Lately I play the Caro Kann a lot and find it absolutely repellent, the positions it gets me into look inelegant, make me want to vomit, the structures are pathetic -- yet, it gets good results -- but in playing it, as they say, "there is no joy in Mudville" -- it is Not fun, it lacks the thrust and parry of an opening that can give rise to (for instance) windmill combinations arising from positions where the entire board is an explosive minefield.
rmannstaedt 13-Feb-13, 10:43	looking to replace the Caro The Caro-Kann was my first "real" chess opening ... so for that reason I am sentimental about it. But - I don't really play it any more. Have thought about giving it a look again, but originally I gave it up because I didn't, as you say, find much joy in those positions. Looking around for something to play against PK4, I tried the Latvian for a while. Fun-fun, but ... well ... maybe there really is such a thing as too much fun?   I am looking at the Schliemann; it may work for me. But meanwhile, and just for fun and trying something else, what about the Alekhine? I tried it a couple of times recently - mainly because I was a bit bored and wanted something different - and I was, truth to tell, a bit shocked at how well it actually played. The book I have on it isn't that good though (W. Bagirow) and I have been thinking of getting something more up-to-date and in-depth on the strategic aspects of the opening. Have you heard of something you could recommend? Alternatively I may take a look at the Pirc again. I didn't handle it well, earlier - I was far, far too defensive in my play. But I believe White may be able to force play into drawing lines in that opening, if memory serves.
tactical_abyss 13-Feb-13, 10:45	Russian variation is best,in my opinion for the Grun.But shamash is correct on white equalizing,but black can as well.There are alot of dry ends to the Grun.But not necessaily as much on the levels under master ratings,so its worth exploring. Stats average 35.8% wins for white,23.3 % for black wins and a whopping 40.9% draw ratio. Not that a 1700-1900 player will necessarily fall into that draw catagory,but i'm just mentioning the stats.My past game history is full of draws using the Grun,but then,I get draws using almost any opening or defense when playing 2300-2400 players. Note: Oh,guys,even though I ALSO went off the post topic....try to keep this thread open to ONLY the Trompowsky conversations for future viewers to find more easily. Any of you guys can start a new post on the Grunfeld or the Caro and continue the conversation if you want. Thanks!
rmannstaedt 13-Feb-13, 10:50	Trompowsky Yes, sorry - and thanks. I have started a new thread on the topic...
shamash 13-Feb-13, 10:52	the challenge of chess, and perhaps the advantage of the Tromp Regarding the posting: <<"I get draws using almost any opening or defense when playing 2300-2400 players.">> and isn't that the challenge of this game? it is born from an equal position -- and then in late middlegame we once more can be finding ourselves in what appears to be a position of equilibrium, the forces poised -- but held in balance -- a stand-off where winning means meeting the challenge of eroding, exploding, in some way destroying that equilibrium. And that's got to be an advantage of an opening like the Trompowsky, avoiding the doldrums of a drawish position.
tactical_abyss 13-Feb-13, 11:12	Yes,the Tromp I actually sometimes use AS a drawing tool against 2400 and above players,yet,I have found out that I win a better deal of them(as white) with players just under the master levels.You can find a good # of my wins in my GK database.Its important to note that I have even more wins as white when playing this opening OTB as opposed to corresp.Seems like my OTB opponents are not as instantly prepared for the Tromp as corresp players who can take their time,look at the books and databases,ect ect over a 3 day period of time. As few stats on the tromp.Stats can vary depending upon the source,but you can get an idea,anyway: chesstempo.com chesstempo.com Trompowsky Attack 38 31 31 1. d4 Nf6 2. Bg5 - 2...d5 Variation 36 29 35 2...d5 - 2...Ne4 Variation 38 32 30 2...Ne4 White win,black win,draw(above numbers)

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