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From	Message
joveyboy1 09-Dec-18, 15:17	How Would You React to a Complaint? Here's a new forum I thought about. Have you ever gotten complaints from others where you just weren't quite sure how to reply? I just did, and I hope I responded correctly. Perhaps in this forum, I won't be the only one with this kind of experience. Have others received unique complaints? Now would be the time to tell about it. I hope this is a good forum idea, let's find out.
joveyboy1 09-Dec-18, 15:19	An Unexpected Complaint I'll go first. So yesterday, I came on Gameknot, and got an unexpected message. I'll show you the message, but not the player names of course: "From Player A Hello, joveyboy1, Sorry but your Player B is playing stupid. Since many moves he is behind over 14 points and when I am write that there is a, resign button he does not make the last move anymore before he is check mate. He is just waiting til the time runs up. Very insportive for a chess player. When I am 5 points behind and I see the player is strong I resign. I like to play an intresting game not a lost one. So good luck with your team member. Greetings " This was not even a team game, it was a regular 'Let's Play Chess' game, and I was very confused at first, but I pieced it together. I noticed this player is new to Gameknot. Apparently my player was losing but playing until checkmate, and there's no rules against that, but this person didn't like that. When he brought out the resign button, well, I can see why my player didn't like that and delayed the game. Although perhaps not the best thing to do, I can understand why my Player B was unhappy. I thought it was rude for Player A to do that, I mean, I wouldn't like that if someone did it to me. Despite that, I did all I could to be friendly while supporting my player, who I know is very nice from talking to them in the past. This is how I replied: "Sorry Player A, but I can promise you that you'll meet more players like that. Even though I don't do that myself, in fact I agree with how you play, but plenty of players will play to the end, even in a clearly lost game, perhaps for a hopeful stalemate, or they prefer checkmate over resignation. There's no rules against doing that. Gameknot's Question 26 covers this subject a lot: gameknot.com To me, Player B does a great job, and he's a great guy, but I certainly don't tell my players how to play, just to have fun. I'm sorry this has happened, I never wish for anyone to be upset, but I don't have control over something like this. I wish you all the best in your games, but with what's happened, it may be best to just add him to your ignore list to avoid him in the future, there's nothing more that can be done, sorry. Best regards, Joe" There has been no reply from Player A since then, though being online. Being a team captain, I should be able to handle things like this, but this was a first for me. With that, my question is, did I handle this properly, or could I have done better?
joveyboy1 09-Dec-18, 15:19	btw Player A is the player sending the complaint, Player B is my player, I forgot to say
stalhandske 09-Dec-18, 21:28	Though I am not a Team captain or co-captain, I think your response to the complaint was 100% correct. The case you described seems to be fairly common at GK. Such delaying is of course extremely annoying, and probably meant to annoy in the first place. However, there is indeed no rule about it, except the unwritten one of practising fair and decent play in chess games.
timjensen 10-Dec-18, 10:44	You were very diplomatic with player B, but.... Joe - You were very diplomatic with them. What you said to him made sense. Quite frankly, I don't believe I would ever complain to a team captain about their player. I would expect player B to address player A directly. Anything else is, in my view, a violation of rule 13 on this page: gameknot.com Just my thoughts, ~Tim
mikemate 11-Dec-18, 08:38	This can be tricky if player B is new to Gameknot. In that case I may contact the opposing player as well as the Captain. Complain? No, but make aware.
king_0_nothing 14-Dec-18, 22:56	Joe, your response was perfect. I also feel that it's everyone's right to use all the time allotted to them even in losing situations. Sometimes it's poor sportsmanship, and I've done it myself a handful of times. Here is one such situation game Another reason they could do it is ladder ranking. If your team's about to reach number 1 and your lost game is the last game to complete a losing match, you may draw it out as long as possible to avoid dropping on the ladder. While that game wasn't lost, it was as good as lost because it was a ladder game and the player started the match against me. I was rated 600 points less than him so my strategy was to use the incremental clock to my advantage, and it worked. Some might say that is dirty, but that was my strategy. Gameknot could mitigate issues such as this by allowing an incremental clock for team matches.
joveyboy1 19-Dec-18, 01:10	Bah, I'm so busy, I took so long to say something here   stalhandske, thank you. I myself am not against someone doing that, mainly because I play a lot of games, but I can understand why it can annoy others, more so with fast moving, non-premium players, which is who Player A is. I'd say Player A could have handled the situation better. Player B is also a fast player, so the game could have still finished quickly if Player B didn't say anything negative. That being said, the game was still finished in 6 days   hamot2, thank you. Player A never did give any indication that he added Player B to their ignore list, or vice versa. If they did, I would report them right now. I don't have any proof myself, so I'm not sure if it would be best to try. Regardless, if Player A keeps this attitude up, it would not be surprising if they do get in trouble with Gameknot at some point. mikemate, the odd thing is, this wasn't even a team game, it was a normal, single game. Player A has never been on a team. That tells me they aren't 100% as to how things work on Gameknot. I used to be that way, in different ways. I kinda still am   king_0_nothing, thank you, and I agree, if the time is given, you're allowed to use it all if needed. Again though it wasn't a team game, just a normal game of 'Let's Play Chess', which is why Player A still perplexes me as to why they even contacted me. And I see no wrong with what you did, it's not your fault your opponent couldn't move in time. I could never use the clock that well though lol. It would be interesting if team matches had the incremental clock. I definitely wouldn't be against it. Player A never did reply to my message, but oh well, I did all my best to be nice to them. Hopefully they remember that if they ever decide to send me another message, I'll keep being as kind as I can if they do
classica 19-Dec-18, 09:49	Joe, you are an inspiration to us all with your diplomacy and class. Well done! 🏆
shirlmygirl 19-Dec-18, 19:34	Joe, you are such a dear, kind and courteous young man. You are a credit to your team. I apologize for not contributing more to this thread.
joveyboy1 22-Dec-18, 00:17	Thank you all for the kind words   It was definitely an interesting experience to deal with. I am glad it's over though, that conversation could have went anywhere, and I think I took about half an hour thinking hard just to write that one reply.
lord_shiva 23-Dec-18, 21:10	Ratings If they are under 1500, maybe they are playing it out to learn how checkmates work, or because they think the may pull off a draw. I tend to keep playing lost positions just to see the engine analysis of my moves. Especially if my opponent has timeouts.
joveyboy1 28-Dec-18, 22:52	They were under 1500 yes, my Player A just upgraded their membership as well, so they've been taking extra games. I took a look at some of Player A's loses, and it does seem they never resign, no matter how big the disadvantage. Again, no problem with that, in my view at least, and Player A is normally very fast, under an hour average time per move, so to me, that makes it even less of a problem for those who take notice. If it as you say lord_shiva, I agree, those are good reasons to keep playing, and perhaps they are doing the same. Also I didn't think about looking at timeouts, though I guess I should have considering king_0_nothing's post. I tend not to realize these things right away   I'd like to know why Player B felt they needed to say something to me about it. I may be Player A's captain, but I certainly don't control how they play chess. Hopefully Player B realizes that from my message.
classica 28-Dec-18, 22:57	I wonder if it is against the rules for anyone to advise another player to resign their game. Is that considered helping or cheating?
shirlmygirl 29-Dec-18, 20:15	I have suggested to my players in a Forum message that they resign their LOSING games, but I also told them that I am inclined not to do that myself until it is more obvious I have lost the game. I am inclined to fight for the game, therefore, I can understand why my players do.
stalhandske 29-Dec-18, 20:19	I think classica meant advising to resign (or, I guess, not resign) an ongoing specific game. Although it does not seem too bad, I would say that it is formally against the rules.
shirlmygirl 29-Dec-18, 20:23	Yes, I am sure you are right, stalhandske. I am also sure it is wrong to resign winning games just to push a team up the ladder, and I have known that happen. I have been told about it.
mikemate 30-Dec-18, 07:41	I have stated on our team forum that it is better to resign your "lost' games before winning the won games This is against human nature but it keeps the 90 day rating in check. As Captains/co- Captains we place too much attention on the 90 day rating stat. There are cases where that statistic is nearly meaningless..
shirlmygirl 30-Dec-18, 10:51	I agree, Mike. I find it very difficult to pair my players when they have a huge 90 day rating (up to 200 points sometimes). I think that some players just like to see how high their rating can go, but it always seems to result in a really steep plunge. I will sometimes pair my players against an opponent with a high 90 day rating, but only if I can see a sharp spike upward on their chart to account for that high rating. Even so, I do wonder if my player will resent my pairing him against a high 90 day rating opponent. I do tell my players that I use the chart (graph) on the profile page when pairing. In fact, it is the first thing I look at when considering an opponent.
timjensen 30-Dec-18, 11:28	Against the rules... Please explain how this is against the rules.
shirlmygirl 30-Dec-18, 11:33	What are you referring to, Tim?
timjensen 30-Dec-18, 11:39	From stalhandske: “I think classica meant advising to resign (or, I guess, not resign) an ongoing specific game. Although it does not seem too bad, I would say that it is formally against the rules.”
shirlmygirl 30-Dec-18, 11:45	I think that stalhandske means it is probably against the rules for one player to advise another player to resign a game, but I will let him speak for himself.
classica 30-Dec-18, 12:12	It seems that advising the team as a whole, in the forum, to resign lost games or not is OK. However, it would seem it might break the rules to advise that a specific game be resigned or not, as that would be helping.
shirlmygirl 30-Dec-18, 12:39	I think it is OK for a Captain to advise his/her team to resign lost games is OK. After all, they are lost games. To advise the players to resign won games to complete the match in order to advance the team up the ladder is definitely not OK, and probably is a breach of GameKnot rules. I always look at the final board of a finished game for my team, but that is certainly not practical for a moderate or large team.
riaannieman 30-Dec-18, 20:42	joveyboy1 is a great opposing captain. I think his answer to the problem was spot-on. I our team forum we have a thread for interesting games. If ever I invite my team to look at an ongoing game I make a point of telling them to give no feedback or input until the game is finished. However, once the game is done we discuss it at length. Other players who also post in this thread do the same; they inform the rest of the team if the game is ongoing and to refrain from making comments until done. Other players with more patience wait until the game is done before posting it. I also told Team SWAT that it is every player's prerogative to resign (or not) a losing game- the team management would not interfere, and nobody is allowed to give advice about an ongoing game. My only advice is for every player (meaning a general entry into a thread of several different topics) to fight as hard as they can, and above all enjoy the experience on this site. After all, although we compete to the best of our ability we are not here to frustrate ourselves but to enjoy a game that we al love to play.
goldentweety 30-Dec-18, 23:02	Deleted by goldentweety on 30-Dec-18, 23:31.
goldentweety 30-Dec-18, 23:35	My two cents I wanted to post this under a different thread but it has been locked. I have been on gameknot 2 years and resovled some difficult issues but I am an easy going guy so I find no need to put anyone on ignore. I have a complaint against one captain who berated me and insulted me and up to today he still blames me for the loss of his team. Luckily he has placed me and _the_jim_ on ignore so he is not a bother at all. As for PLB, I often get challenges which they decline saying "too strong" but I match fairly and evenly but not good enough for sekulic. He is just doing his job as captain. In some cases the 90 day rule of+- 50 points is not suitable as I agree with Shirley, and I have some players where their 90 day is 200 points different.Sometimes I will choose an opponent that has an elo far weaker than requested(40-60), but the 90 days line up. I still consider this a fair match and you would be surprised at how well a team member can perform when facing an overrated opponent A player posted in our forum that when we are in first place we should prolong losing games if they were the last game of the match and the match was a loss. It was quite controversial. My advice to the players was to keep doing what they were doing as we have not dipped below 25 on the ladder in 2018. I am satisfied with that and we will not resort to trickery just to hold a spot on the ladder. Even though we are a bigger team I still check the match after every game win lose or draw to determine the probable outcome of the match and to see where we have made matching errors. I inspect each and every game when matches are won lost or drawn. I am looking for oddities or well played games and I post the games in the forums sometimes. I hate timeouts and I catch alot of people this way. By the way best of luck in 2019 from the Knights Templar Team
baddeeds 31-Dec-18, 07:57	It was in the, "Complaint about a Captain" thread. And, yes, I have to be cautious, but as much as it's so, I also agree with Dave. With other things that I stayed out of, things got negative enough that, sooner or later, I had to get involved, when we had the report abuse complaints. That is, one after another, which is why JJ is back in full swing. When possible, the other reason I like to say positive is that negativity makes it seem like the glass is half empty, rather then, half full. But, I understand your problem Joe, and it's possible that, sometimes, your co-captains don't realize that there isn't an exact match in top 90 day rating. That, they're further apart then might appear. Something like that happened with my team, and a co-captain said something about that to address the issue which worked. You also mentioned about players losing games on time, my team's got a zero tolerance policy for that. The other thing is that it's ideal when current and top 90 day ratings align, and there's no huge gap in either because the other teams would want matches that are, as fair as, possible. That's why I promised a previous captain to keep top 90 day ratings to a minimum before I became the captain. Also, I think that your advice is useful and could help players to come a long way into it. The idea is to try and stay positive, and positive things will come out of it.
shirlmygirl 31-Dec-18, 12:09	I am happy to say that Eric (sekulic) saw my posts on the closed thread and contacted me yesterday. He said I "tend be a little dramatic."   We messaged each other, and have put a "patch" on our relationship, with the hope that we will be friendly during 2019.
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