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From	Message
mikemate 30-Oct-20, 16:07	Offering draws in winning position? In some/most OTB team tournaments with generally four players/team it is common to offer a draw to win a match, even if you are in a winning position. However, this team format is different. So, my question: Is it a violation to offer a draw if you are clearly winning to win the match? The draw does keep the winning player from (slightly) raising the rating. If this is done many times is it rating manipulation?
urbanascott 30-Oct-20, 22:41	That is an excellent question Mike. I have been pondering the same thing lately. I personally am okay with it since we are playing this as a “team” sport. I have played in several OTB chess team tournaments, and that was a VERY common practice. Just like on GK, even though we were playing in a team tournament, the results impacted our individual USCF ratings. As a chess player, I am not sure how many players would be willing to sacrifice their own rating gain for the sake of securing a faster team win. All of our players seem like they are striving for higher ratings as their long term individual goal. Most of my games last 3-4 months; I don’t think I could spend that much time on something, gain a winning position, and then accept a draw for my efforts just so the team match ends faster. As a team captain, it is nice to see a teammate make a sacrifice for the good of the team. And, it shows me that the player’s goal is the “team win” and he doesn’t want to risk making an error in his game when he can secure the team win with a draw. I would NEVER ask a player to do anything like that. But, I don’t think I would be upset if I saw it.
checkcharlie 31-Oct-20, 15:07	In my early years on GK I was a member of a team where the Captain would use draws, when in winning positions, as an effective way of winning the match and so climb the ladder. Some Captains may recall this team that would dramatically rise to no 1 on the ladder at the end of each and every month. It created a strong team spirit such that the success of the team overrode concerns with personal rating. It is a simple fact that in a losing position most opponents will gladly accept the offer of a draw. As the final game in a given match, such a draw would then win the match. However, these draws inevitably attracted the wrath of other Captains who concluded these draws were artificially keeping team players ratings below their true strength and so giving a significant advantage to the team’s success. Their consensus was that such games should be fully played out. Subsequent complaints to GK led to this team folding. I do not think opinion on GK has shifted and so too much of this activity on here would certainly be considered rating manipulation. In OTB team play, the games are much more influenced by variations in playing strength and time constraints, and I have had no qualms when the final game resulted in the win for our team on the acceptance of a draw even though our player could have won. We would all celebrate and go home early! I think though that if it had been the same player each time we would have had a problem. My experience is that OTB tournament players are very jealous of their ratings.
mikemate 31-Oct-20, 15:12	Block or Bleed? I remember them well.
checkcharlie 31-Oct-20, 15:18	It was indeed. Caused quite a furore on here at the time!
shirlmygirl 01-Nov-20, 11:18	Deleted by checkcharlie on 01-Nov-20, 15:06.
checkcharlie 01-Nov-20, 15:09	Shirley, Your post has been reported. Please do not comment negatively on a player such that he can be identified. Charlie
lord_shiva 01-Nov-20, 15:09	64 Squares Dave is co-captain of 64 Squares. Welcome, Dave! Please observe the club's rules of decorum, which include GK's rules of etiquette. We look forward to your contributions building team spirit and esprit de corps.
shirlmygirl 01-Nov-20, 16:26	I did not identify the player or the team, Charlie. Obviously, if I was reported, the player could identify himself. With a little investigation, he could be identified by others, I admit. I could have said quite a bit more in my post, but I chose not to do so. It would have been a good thing, I think, if the previous thread where another player on that team was discussed had not been deleted. I offer no apologies for my post. I hope you copied that post because king_0_nothing wants to know the contents of a deleted post, but I know that he had been online so I am fairly sure that he had already seen my post. Perhaps the player involved should not be posting such remarks on his profile page if that remark made him identifiable.
bumblingbishop 01-Nov-20, 16:31	Deleted by bumblingbishop on 04-Nov-20, 16:54.
shirlmygirl 01-Nov-20, 16:42	You haven't wronged me personally because I have not played your team. But I certainly am interested in the way a brand new team shoots to the top of the ladder and stays very close to the top.
bumblingbishop 01-Nov-20, 16:46	Deleted by bumblingbishop on 04-Nov-20, 16:54.
shirlmygirl 01-Nov-20, 16:57	Yes, I am really surprised that so many teams are anxious to play yours, and I am sure that your team's ladder position prompts them to try to get a match with your team. But I also wonder how many matches your team has lost. You might not be aware of this, but I take a good look at any team that looks suspicious to see if that team is cheating. I am quite well known on GameKnot for such, and have been extremely insulted by captains in the past, so I am used to it. You certainly seem courteous, so far.
bumblingbishop 01-Nov-20, 17:05	Deleted by bumblingbishop on 04-Nov-20, 16:54.
shirlmygirl 01-Nov-20, 17:31	Certainly, we can just go about doing what we usually do and play chess. Yes, I do get abrasive in certain situations, and although you have been courteous, you certainly can be sarcastic.
urbanascott 01-Nov-20, 18:21	Dave, First, welcome! Second, I think if you look at the topic of this thread, and the comments by me and checkcharlie, you can surmise that Shirley was likely implying that you are prematurely ending your games as draws if your teammate in the match has already earned 1.5 or 2 points in his/her match in order to quickly lock in a team win. The concern is that you are drawing when having winning positions, and thus are manipulating your rating lower since you would earn significantly more points in a win than the couple of points you earn or lose n a draw. As I stated in my post above, since we are playing chess as a "team" sport, then "team strategies" should be allowed. I equated it to the OTB team USCF tournament events I played in and that was a VERY common strategy. If you are the last player on the team playing, and a draw secures a team win, and you are there to play a team sport, then it is an extremely common practice for that player to draw their game, win the match for the team, and move on to the next round. Securing the win early eliminates the risk you take by playing out a game in which you could make a blunder, lose the game, and thus lose the team match. These were all USCF events, so your individual USCF rating was impacted by the game result, just like they are here on GameKnot. Chechcharlie (who I have never had the pleasure of running into before) provided some GK history and stated that a team did that several years ago and "...these draws inevitably attracted the wrath of other Captains who concluded these draws were artificially keeping team players ratings below their true strength and so giving a significant advantage to the team’s success. Their consensus was that such games should be fully played out. Subsequent complaints to GK led to this team folding." There are a few folks on these threads that tend to be the "police, judge and jury" of all things GameKnot, and I guess they are the arbitrator of whether you have a winning, equal or losing position and have determined that your rating would be much higher if you played out your winning games instead of drawing them. My guess is that based on you current trajectory your playing strength is likely a few hundred points higher that it is now (it takes a while to reach you actual rating on GK) so I assume these arbitrators are 2400-2500 players if they are able to fully evaluate your games. I assume they are also calculating in the risk you taking in possibly making a mistake in the endgame which could result in a loss and thus your team just drawing or losing the match. (I just made a blunder in a game in which I declined a draw a move earlier, so I assumed some risk when not accepting the draw and ended up with a loss. Thankfully it was a mini-tourney game and I did not negatively impact a team match. I still think that if you are playing a team sport then you should be able to use team strategies, but I am sure I am in the small minority on this subject. (Rating manipulation is a common topic on these discussion threads.) If GameKnot has rules regarding drawing team games to secure a team win then GK should publish them. I am not so sure it is purposeful rating manipulation to act like a team player in team event. Now, if you were losing a bunch of non-team games in order to lower you rating so you would get easier matches in team games, that would certainly be rating manipulation, but I don't that folks have made that claim yet, but it is just Sunday!😇 And third, I must be missing the "sarcasm" Shirley is referencing, but I am probably being sarcastic for pointing that out. I hope that puts everything out in the open for you.
bumblingbishop 01-Nov-20, 18:49	Deleted by bumblingbishop on 04-Nov-20, 16:54.
urbanascott 01-Nov-20, 19:19	So, it is fair to say that you are approaching your team games as a "team sport," and you are sacrificing your individual record for the betterment of the team, to secure the win for the team? Do you see how people can look at all the draws and think that you are purposefully lowering your rating by drawing games you are winning (based on your own admission)?
mikemate 01-Nov-20, 19:42	Dave, I will admit you were on my mind when I started this thread but not to "bait" you, it was a real question. Rating manipulation is a problem but that is a Gameknot problem. Team play on this site is not ideal and can easily have players unknowingly manipulate their rating. There is a fine line between "playing hard for the team" and manipulation. This issue could be somewhat solved by using individual team ratings in the pairing process and not current ratings. And the 90 day high rating thing drives me crazy when making matches!
urbanascott 01-Nov-20, 19:51	Mike, Re "...using individual team ratings in the pairing process and not current ratings." Wouldn't the individual team rating be even more manipulated since the early drawing is just occurring during team games, not non-team games?
mikemate 01-Nov-20, 19:55	Also Dave, since you brought it up, correct me if I'm wrong, your daughter is serving temporary and automatic team game suspension for a specified time. Your Captain must have told you about my questioning another player on your team. That player will not serve the same suspension although what he did could be considered worse. IMO.
mikemate 01-Nov-20, 19:57	Scott, maybe but the current rating is easily manipulated, just lose non-team games (over 16 moves, lol).
mikemate 01-Nov-20, 20:39	Here is another team game format for this site: average team rating = x. Then you as captain have to decide whether you pick 4 players at x or 2 players at x +200 and 2 players at x - 200 etc. Gives you a wide choice.
shirlmygirl 01-Nov-20, 21:39	BUMBLING BISHOP This statement of yours didn't offend me at all. I just thought it was very interesting, and provocative, that you would even put it there. It would certainly attract anyone's attention. I do not try to start drama, but I certainly will protest when I see something that I believe is unethical, especially when I see that you have so far never lost a team game and have so many draws. Your statement: "Third, just so you aren't in the dark...my response had to do with Shirley's deleted comment in regards to my profile page and what it said. Seems she took offense to my statement about people on Gameknot having too much time and want for drama instead of playing chess. Instead of asking me to remove it if it offended so much, she decided to air her grievance here in open forum and disprove my statement by starting drama? An interesting approach (much sarcasm)!"
bumblingbishop 02-Nov-20, 07:35	Deleted by bumblingbishop on 04-Nov-20, 16:54.
bumblingbishop 02-Nov-20, 08:46	Deleted by bumblingbishop on 04-Nov-20, 16:55.

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