|
« TAP TO LOG IN
|
Play online chess!
General Science
« Back to club forum
| ||||||||||||||||
| From | Message | |||||||||||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|
 Lord_shiva. . .Call it what it is, not-smart guy. When people pray for healing, in and by the name of Jesus Christ, and what is prayed for HAPPENS, that is called faith. Period. In each one of these documented cases that is what happened. "spontaneous remission", my back-side hairs! The Lord, in whose name these healings occurred talked about cases like you. Whatever your reason for being so hard-hearted against giving God glory Jesus said some ( like you would not believe ) Luke 16:31. Thankfully, those who WILL BELIEVE ( it's a choice ) have hope and are blessed of the Lord. |
|||||||||||||||
|
Spontaneous Remission Double blind statistical studies of intercessory prayer have not revealed any benefit. Those prayed for recover at the same rate as the control group. Following was a carefully controlled study on the therapeutic effects of intercessory prayer on cardiac bypass patients: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov Key findings: In the 2 groups uncertain about receiving intercessory prayer, complications occurred in 52% (315/604) of patients who received intercessory prayer versus 51% (304/597) of those who did not (relative risk 1.02, 95% CI 0.92-1.15). Complications occurred in 59% (352/601) of patients certain of receiving intercessory prayer compared with the 52% (315/604) of those uncertain of receiving intercessory prayer (relative risk 1.14, 95% CI 1.02-1.28). Major events and 30-day mortality were similar across the 3 groups. CONCLUSIONS: Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG, but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications. Honestly, I cannot see why knowing someone was praying for you should increase complications from surgery--I am compelled to believe the effect is attributable to random variation and is NOT a typical consequence. I doubt more study would resolve this--I'm satisfied the science has adequately demonstrated no particular medical value to this. Now, it must be noted this isn't faith healing, but instead one small component of it. Most of us, when we think of faith healing, think of the big tent revivals. Father DiOrio held his event in a sports stadium. While dozens of people claimed to be healed, near as I could discern the whole affair was a sham founded up self delusion. |
|||||||||||||||
|
Another world lying side by side, our physical world also exists. It's commonly referred to as the spiritual world. This world, I submit is larger and more powerful than our physical world. Some scientists have high regard for this spiritual world for this reason. You may read some of their work/ beliefs regarding the spiritual world at www.asa3.org. |
|||||||||||||||
|
Pub Med on Miracles "Let me emphatically state at the outset, that I do not criticize anyone for praying for themselves or anyone else if they choose to. Nor do I deny that there may be benefits to some individuals that stem from prayer. These activities might stimulate subtle mechanisms of psychology and physiology which, when understood more fully, may add to the established benefits of medication and surgery, as they obviously do in psychiatric illnesses. Along with placebo effects, the alleged benefits of prayer may be the result of feelings of well-being, optimism and confidence that result from praying and similar practices like meditation or relaxation. I agree, all of this may exist, and could, perhaps should, be a subject of legitimate scientific inquiry." |
|||||||||||||||
|
Schodinger's Cat Contrast this with the spirit realm. Pray has hard as you want, you cannot make your light saber float in air. |
|||||||||||||||
|
This conversation is beginning to bore me. So, I'll just leave you with your "toys" and critical/ judgmental hatred for the Christian faith to yourself. There are plenty of others more willing to have intelligent conversation. |
|||||||||||||||
|
If I Disagree Is that what this conversation is about--my hatred of all things Christian? What makes you think that--the simple fact we disagree on the efficacy of intercessory prayer? |
|||||||||||||||
|
lord_shiva. . . It is as if you and those who are as skeptical as you – as if you and others can put God into a formula of some kind and say, “Viola, there's nothing more to the Christian's faith than a simple mix of herbs and distilled water which had been hitherto been unknown to us” There isn't any “issue” with modern advances and knowledge which will help make our lives better and healthier, but I take exception with those who INSIST my faith can be duplicated or replaced with more modern techniques or information. |
|||||||||||||||
|
Dismissive Tone I'm not trying to scoff, mock, revile, jibe, or jeer anyone's religious faith. But where faith is contradicted by reality--that I don't mind pointing out. Because I believe the more accurately a person's understanding of the universe, the better the decisions they will make. Groper thinks coastal areas can be mined for offshore petroleum with risk to beaches or other less important industries like fishing. And the decisions he makes out of his appalling depths of ignorance will burden us all. So those are his decisions, but there were a lot of little decisions that placed this incompetent buffoon in charge of everything. And those decisions were predicated on misinformation, such as the Bowling Green Massacre, Muslims and Mexicans are seeking to rape and murder your children, Hillary is a tool of Goldman Sachs while Groper will not have any GS representation in his cabinet or administration, a vanity border wall will be as good for America as enormous tax breaks focused on our wealthy elite, etc. Are you excited to see Medicare slashed to the bone? |
|||||||||||||||
|
Homeopathy People have faith that homeopathy works, even though it is nothing more than distilled water, sometimes tinctured by eucalyptus oil to make it smell like genuine medicine. Homeopathy is as effective as faith healing in the treatment of most medical conditions. |
|||||||||||||||
|
This transcendent path, has allowed me to connect with that God of the Bible, and with the love, power, and sound mind which surpasses anything available in a world where He isn't necessarily the center of. This transcendency, also connects me with like minded people all over the world today as well as those who were like minded from the past. There is a fellowship available to us which connects us to God Himself. All of this transcendent association depends on a common faith, which I'm not sure you value very much. Least not value to the degree where you are able to ascribe personal reverence and commitment to this God I love. |
|||||||||||||||
|
winslowhightower 14-Feb-18, 20:20 |
|
|||||||||||||||
|
winslowhightower . . . There's a great big, wide, untapped world beyond what the small minds of men without God can even begin to imagine. All are invited to come and dine. Everybody from goat herders to presidents! Are you in, winslowhightower? |
|||||||||||||||
|
Faith Circular reasoning is famous among creationists. "We know the Earth is 6000 years old because the Bible tells us. We know the Bible is true because God said so. We know God is real because the Bible tells us so." Loop de loop. I take God's existence as axiomatic. It isn't required, any more than we are required to accept the Continuum Hypothesis, or to reject the Continuum Hypothesis (either way yields equally valid results). So God is like the Continuum Hypothesis--either there are sizes of infinity between Aleph null and Aleph one (where Aleph is the first letter of the Hebrew alphabet--which you should find appealing), or there aren't. Note: We do not prove the Continuum Hypothesis--we cannot. It is independent of the standard axioms of mathematics. So we accept it, or we reject it--or we go with what is most useful at the moment. By way of analogy, the parallel postulate of Euclid is accepted, yielding the immensely useful euclidean geometry--or it is rejected, yielding the immensely useful hyperbolic geometry. Or it is rejected a different way, yielding the immensely useful elliptical geometry. There are many geometries, sort of like there are many religions. While I find great value and utility in geometry, religion is worse than useless. Religion is a hobble, which prevents a horse from running away. Religion is like blinders for a horse, preventing it from seeing the scary things in the world that might make it bolt from its appointed task--drawing the cart of humanity safely to the cemetery for proper burial. Religion is like a tight, knee length skirt that serves the same purpose on women hobbles serve horses. Religion is like high heels, which prevent women from running fast should they ever need to. Give them high heels and trap them down, like horse hobbles. Religion is like long finger nails, crippling a women's hands so that she cannot effectively accomplish real tasks or honest labor. Funny how we equate "beauty" with things that bind, constrict, or restrict the movement of women. |
|||||||||||||||
|
who the Son sets free, is free indeed (John 8:36) On the one hand you conceed to me that << I take God's existence as axiomatic >> “axiomatic” - self-evident or unquestionable. Yet, you take great pains to dismiss this “axiom” << It isn't required, any more than we are required to accept >> What you link with what is “self-evident or unquestionable” are some dubious theroretical mathematics. You want to talk about circular reasoning, here is a good example! Following your “logic” is most difficult, sir. But in order to meet this convoluted objections of yours I'll do so if I can. Next you equate “religion” (right there you are not understanding what my faith is. It isn't a set of “hobble”(s) or “blinders”, as you falsely presume.) How can we have constructive dialogue if you continue to equate my faith with a set of legalistic “dos and don'ts”. My faith is about my relationship with my Creator. This Being which you admit is self-evident and unquestionable. While you seem to be very knowledgable on the subject of mathematics, you might do yourself a favor to study the amazing complexity and harmony found within our universe. Especially, if you study the amazing direct influence our God has had in the affairs of men Namely, to set us free from the unknown phenomena known as “death”. This hugh giant world we have, from the farthest reaches which our radio telescopes can reach to the sub-atomic particles – some of which we only see because we have imagained that they must be there. Men have always wanted to know where did we come from? Why are we here? What is our purpose? Is there anything beyond the grave? God meets all of these questions with unquestionable authority. Are they the same “answers” which naked science provides? Not by a long, long shot. However, the answers God provides are in complete harmony with the Bible. One scientific discipline which has profitted greatly is that of archeology. Before Darwin and the false teaching that origins of biological life began from mere happenstance I believe anthropology also was substantiated by the Biblical narrative. In conclusion, though men may continue to search for intelligent life outside our earth sphere, I doubt very much they'll will find anything. This unique planet is designed for we humans and the animal life which God originally created. It has been God's hope that men would commune with Him and be thankful for the life He's given. Any other endeavor is futile, and ultimately, un -fulfilling! |
|||||||||||||||
|
Dos & Don'ts If you don't have a religion and I attack religion, then I am not attacking you. N'cest pas? How about we start off this way. I'm not attacking you. So how does your faith in God lead you to reject science? Where did we come from? Funny--I just got my DNA test back. My most ancient paternal ancestors lived in eastern Africa about 275,000 years ago. A wee bit more than 6000 years suggested by some ancient religious scrolls. "The answers God provides are in complete harmony with the Bible." That is an odd statement. Because isn't it the Bible you're deriving the "answers of God?" Are you getting God's answers from somewhere else, and then comparing them to what you find in the Bible? |
|||||||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||||||||
|
shirlmygirl. . . "Science" has been turned from data and information, and organizing knowledge into a weapon to brainwash society. |
|||||||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||||||||
|
Brainwashing Religion. Isn't that geared towards brain washing people into specific belief? I don't see that with science at all. Science goes wherever the data indicate. If tomorrow science said the Earth was 6000 years old, scientists would be compelled by the power of evidence to accept that finding. That's just the way science works. Now granted, there are a lot of people who cling to old, outdated notions. Most of these people wear robes and burn incense in cathedrals built to impress the locals, or preach gospel on their television stations to the masses. WHERE has science turned from data and information? I mean, that is so weird. It is like you are saying "Bible = Data & Information." And actual physical data, like radioisotope decay rates, parent/daughter element ratios in geologic rock formations, etc. are just garbage organized into a weapon to brainwash college students. Of course, that isn't what you are saying at all and somehow I just misunderstood you. Care to clarify? |
|||||||||||||||
|
General Science Right? |
|||||||||||||||
|
shirlmygirl . . . Maybe nobody else is as brave as you, lord_shiva and myself . . . |
|||||||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||||||||
|
lord_shiva. . . For the most part that is probably true. Especially, if men believe that they can take God's place. << I don't see that with science at all. Science goes wherever the data indicate. >> Except where classrooms have been forbidden from introducing faith and God as guiding forces to explain what is behind the phenomena which is being discussed and explored. Indeed, removing the possibility that God, as a Creative force to explain the world we are exploring, what does that leave for impressionable minds? A big fat vacuum into which the baser instincts and weaknesses inherent in human beings is given reign to operate. Viola. No boundaries for human behavior except what may be legislated. Can you say “police state”? << Now granted, there are a lot of people who cling to old, outdated notions. Most of these people wear robes and burn incense in cathedrals built to impress the locals, or preach gospel on their television stations to the masses. >> Those that “wear the robes and burn incense” - what impact do they have on who? A very few I would imagine. Certainly those who are not very well educated or attuned to modern society today. As for those who “preach (G)ospel” – if it is the Gospel of Jesus, I doubt very much they are addressing anything related to science. Speaking of which who introduced the whole subject of “relgion”? It wasn't I was it? << you are saying "Bible = Data & Information." And actual physical data, like radioisotope decay rates, parent/daughter element ratios in geologic rock formations, etc. >> I DID NOT SAY ANY OF THIS! If you are going to quote me, please, do so accurately, please? What I said that the Bible corroberates some of the scientific facts we now deal with. As with archeology and anthropology. << Of course, that isn't what you are saying at all and somehow I just misunderstood you. Care to clarify? >> The Bible is a reliable and authoritive source which explains our origins, our puposes and our future and our past. Do you want to hear this in Russian, or Greek or French? It applies to them as well, but you'll have to use a translator, sir. |
|||||||||||||||
|
dmaestro 15-Feb-18, 20:55 |
Jesus was talking mostly about the world of spirit mostly not this tiny slice of a material shadow realm en.m.wikipedia.org. The voice of God is as described but it’s oersonal and its behind the more noisy voices most listen too instead. |
|||||||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||||||||
|
dmaestro / apatzer . . . And, you, alpatzer, I am amazed that you join with dmaestro in this subverting of the Biblical narrative. Scientists haven't censored the Biblical narrative, but those who are threatened by it. Another thing, there is more to the Biblical narrative than merely “the voice of God”, which of course can be a “personal thing” - but your analagy completely misrepresents the Gospel message. This pagan story, “The Allegory of the Cave”, completely misses this and, you, again, mispresent the power of the Gospel message by using it here. The only reason I am answering it here on the “general science” thread is because there are some here who probably are somewhat familiar with these terms and may not see through your false premise and assertions. First of all the message conveyed in “The Cave” is about << to compare "the effect of education (παιδεία) and the lack of it on our nature" >> Being a pagans, both Plato's brother, Glaucon and his mentor Socrates, these men knew nothing of the spiritual dimension which Christians are cognizant of. And how have you become aware of this truth except by the hearing of it? (Romans 10:14 - But how can people call on him if they have not believed in him? How can they believe in him if they have not heard his message? How can they hear if no one tells the Good News? ) This is how the Gospel message works. Men preach it, people hear, and they are converted. Throughout history men have tried to silence preachers just because of the power the Gospel has to change men. No one can deny this because of the history of those who have changed the world after their conversion. |
|||||||||||||||
|
God created everything esle first, including the animals ( before us) and set systems in place for THEM to flourish. And every one of those species can be traced back to an origin. A direct line. Humans not so much. We are very new to this earth compared to other species are we not? And I believe the same processes that allows all life to flourish also allows us to flourish and change with our environment. But we are not a product of it. and no smoking gun has ever been found to provide the missing link. and it wont. Question. If a world such as earth that already had a diverse eco system/bio sphear. That was temming with life. If you had the scientific ability (vast knowlege of genetics) to take biological elements from that system and create a new species. Then have that species Quarantined in a controlled environment for a little while (the garden of Eden ) once you decided to release that species into the greater system. Fast forward millions of years..... How could that species reverse engineer its roots to determine exactly where that species came from? Where could you trace it back to. Especially when every living thing on this planet shares DNA that is over 90% similar Has the missing link been found yet? Or are we trying to hammer a square peg into a round hole. I don't blame people for believing in evolution because like math, it is a system that has been put into place and we are subject to it, but we did not come from it! |
|||||||||||||||
|
GULO Denisovans. Earlier hominids. GULO alone is pretty fascinating but endogenous retroviral insertions are themselves pretty inescapable evidence for common ancestry. Maybe only SOME of us evolved? Who among us views Darwin's great panoply of life mysterious and almost magical, connecting us through our bones and blood to all other organisms on Earth, versus being the byproduct of incest and riverbank mud? |
|||||||||||||||
|
LS Now Turns His Smoking Semiautomatic Towards IHS Scientists have not censored anyone. Can you preach whatever you want from the pulpit of your church? Are flat earthers "censored" because we do not permit their silliness taught in our lecture halls? Biology in the public school, and creationism in the Sunday School. Or IHS, am I censored because I cannot teach big bang cosmology and evolutionary biology in your church? Quid pro quo? LOL. |
|||||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||||
