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From	Message
canuktuff 06-Dec-17, 18:20	Bf4 Nc3 is the proper move ,and i believe the other side is expecting this move ..but honestly ..i like Bf4 better ..Bf4...Bxf4--------gxf4...0 0-------e3 Black will have to shift his work to Queen side with b6 or dxc4 i vote for Bf4
the-sigularity 06-Dec-17, 19:35	clas While I have limited knowledge in the game because I learned it at an old age of forty years, I have not devoted much time to study, and only play by instinct. (Not recommended) But when you block bishop movement with a knight, it is not a good idea to exchange a bishop for a knight, which you probably know much better that I do, but that is the reason I believe the knight move nullifies that bishop move, to where we can place our bishop behind our knight (same diagonal) And if they challenge our position with their f6 knight, we will still be alright with our bishop at b4 as you had suggested. NO?
ipsissimus 06-Dec-17, 21:30	I vote 7.b3 This is the most common move that occurs in top-level Grandmaster play. It occurs about four times as often as Nc3. I presented a game here but I admit that I have not played through the score of the game. [Event "London m 25'"] [Site "London"] [Date "1987.02.04"] [Round "1"] [White "Kasparov, Garry"] [Black "Short, Nigel D"] [Result "1-0"] [ECO "A90"] [WhiteElo "2735"] [BlackElo "2615"] [PlyCount "120"] [EventDate "1987.02.??"] [EventType "match (rapid)"] [EventRounds "6"] [EventCountry "ENG"] [SourceTitle "CBM 002"] [Source "ChessBase"] [SourceDate "1988.02.01"] [SourceVersion "1"] [SourceVersionDate "1988.02.01"] [SourceQuality "1"] 1. d4 e6 2. Nf3 f5 3. g3 Nf6 4. Bg2 d5 5. c4 c6 6. O-O Bd6 7. b3 Qe7 8. a4 O-O 9. Ba3 Bxa3 10. Nxa3 Nbd7 11. a5 b6 12. Qd2 Ne4 13. Qb2 Bb7 14. b4 bxa5 15. bxa5 Rab8 16. Rfb1 c5 17. Qc1 Rfc8 18. Qe3 cxd4 19. Qxd4 Qc5 20. Rb5 Qxd4 21. Nxd4 Kf7 22. cxd5 Bxd5 23. Nxf5 Ndf6 24. Bxe4 Nxe4 25. f3 exf5 26. Rxd5 Nc3 27. Rxf5+ Ke6 28. e4 g6 29. Rg5 Rb2 30. Kh1 Kf6 31. h4 Rf2 32. Rc1 Rd8 33. Nc4 Ne2 34. Rb1 Rxf3 35. Kg2 Rdd3 36. Ne5 Rxg3+ 37. Kf2 Rc3 38. Ng4+ Ke6 39. Kxe2 Rc2+ 40. Kf1 Rf3+ 41. Ke1 Rh3 42. Re5+ Kd6 43. Rd1+ Kc6 44. Nf2 Rxh4 45. Rd8 Ra2 46. Red5 Rh2 47. Rd2 Rxa5 48. Rc2+ Kb7 49. Rd7+ Kb6 50. Rd3 Rb5 51. Rd6+ Kb7 52. Kf1 g5 53. Kg1 Rh4 54. Kg2 a5 55. Nd3 Rg4+ 56. Kf3 Rg1 57. e5 g4+ 58. Kf2 Rgb1 59. e6 Rf5+ 60. Kg2 h5 1-0 Martin
elyhim 07-Dec-17, 10:21	I am with martin I vote b3
ipsissimus 07-Dec-17, 11:53	Another game [Site "Baden-Baden"] [Date "2015.02.06"] [Round "4"] [White "Anand, Viswanathan"] [Black "Carlsen, Magnus"] [Result "0-1"] [ECO "A90"] [WhiteElo "2797"] [BlackElo "2865"] [Annotator "Roiz,M"] [PlyCount "72"] [EventDate "2015.02.02"] [EventType "tourn"] [EventRounds "7"] [EventCountry "GER"] [EventCategory "20"] [SourceTitle "CBM 165"] [Source "ChessBase"] [SourceDate "2015.03.11"] [SourceVersion "1"] [SourceVersionDate "2015.03.11"] [SourceQuality "1"] 1. d4 f5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 e6 4. c4 c6 5. Nf3 d5 {The Stonewall system must have come as a surprise for Vishy. Magnus prefers to deviate from the main theoretical lines as soon as possible.} 6. O-O Bd6 7. b3 Qe7 {Avoiding the exchange of the dark-squared bishops.} 8. Ne5 O-O 9. Nd2 {White goes for a classical plan of occupying the central square with both of his knights.} a5 { A typical useful move for such a structure - Black is getting some space for his q-side pieces and preventing White from advancing the b-pawn.} (9... c5 10. e3 Nc6 11. Bb2 cxd4 12. exd4 $14) (9... Nbd7 10. Ndf3 Ne4 11. Bf4 $14) (9... b6 10. cxd5 exd5 (10... cxd5 11. Ndc4 $1 $14) 11. Bb2 Bb7 12. Rc1 $14) 10. Bb2 { This natural developing move seems most promising.} ({Black doesn't experience any problems after} 10. Ndf3 b6 11. Qc2 Bb7 12. Bf4 Ne4 13. Nd3 Bxf4 14. Nxf4 Nd7 $11) 10... Nbd7 (10... b6 11. cxd5 exd5 12. Rc1 Bb7 13. e3 $14) 11. Qc2 a4 12. Ndf3 {Vishy decides not to react to the aggressive advance of Black's a-pawn.} ({The previously played} 12. bxa4 $5 {also comes to consideration:} Ne4 13. Nxe4 (13. Ndf3 Bxe5 14. dxe5 $6 Nb6 15. cxd5 exd5 16. Rab1 Nc4 $15 { 0-1 (29) Goganov,A (2550)-Sandipan,C (2590)/Moscow RUS 2013}) 13... fxe4 14. f4 exf3 15. Nxf3 $14) 12... Ne4 13. e3 $146 {This innovation doesn't really change the evaluation - White is slightly better due to a space advantage, but Black's position is very solid.} ({Also worth considering is} 13. Rab1 $5 { freeing the a1-square for the bishop is more promising. For instance,} a3 ( 13... Bxe5 14. dxe5 Qb4 15. Rfd1 $14 {1-0 (24) Cifuentes Parada,R (2508) -Salamero Pelay,F (2130)/Spain 2011/EXT 2013}) 14. Ba1 Nxe5 15. Nxe5 Bd7 16. f3 Nf6 17. Nd3 {with a long strategic battle, where White's chances are preferable due to a space advantage.}) 13... a3 14. Bc3 ({After} 14. Bc1 g5 ( 14... c5 $5 15. cxd5 exd5 16. Nxd7 Bxd7 17. dxc5 Bxc5 18. Qd3 Rad8 $11 { is another solid way to equalise}) 15. Nxd7 Bxd7 16. c5 Bc7 17. b4 Be8 $132 { White lacks harmony, so Black has no reasons for complaint.}) 14... Nxe5 15. Nxe5 Bd7 ({The following simplification hardly promises Black equality:} 15... Bxe5 16. dxe5 Nxc3 17. Qxc3 Bd7 18. c5 Be8 19. Rad1 Bh5 20. f3 $14) 16. Nxd7 { The exchange of the passive bishop definitely makes Black's play easier.} ({ It looks like} 16. Be1 $142 $1 Be8 17. f3 Nf6 18. Nd3 e5 19. c5 (19. dxe5 Bxe5 20. Nxe5 Qxe5 21. Qc1 Qe7 $11) 19... Bc7 20. Nxe5 Bxe5 21. dxe5 Qxe5 22. Qc3 Qe7 23. Qd4 {would allow White to keep a small, but risk-free edge.}) 16... Qxd7 17. c5 {This ambitious advance is double-edged: White seizes a lot of space on the queenside, but releasing the pressure in the centre offer Black decent counterplay on the opposite side.} (17. Be1 b5 18. f3 Nf6 19. c5 Bc7 20. Bc3 h5 $11) 17... Bc7 ({Magnus deviates from a boring equalising line:} 17... Nxc3 18. Qxc3 Be7 19. b4 b5 20. Rab1 Ra4 21. Rb3 Rfa8 $11) 18. b4 h5 {Black has no real threats yet, but White's king is under pressure now.} 19. Be1 e5 20. dxe5 (20. f3 $5 {also deserved some attention:} Nf6 21. Rb1 exd4 22. exd4 h4 23. b5 hxg3 24. hxg3 Nh5 25. bxc6 bxc6 26. f4 Nf6 27. Rf3 $11) 20... Bxe5 21. Rd1 Qe6 {Keeping an eye on the vulnerable Pa2. The position is still equal, but White has to play precisely.} 22. f3 ({After} 22. Rd3 h4 (22... Bb2 23. f3 Nf6 24. Bc3 $11) 23. gxh4 $1 f4 24. f3 Nf6 {White's position doesn't look good, though} 25. Bf2 Qf5 26. e4 dxe4 27. fxe4 Qg6 28. Kh1 {enables him to keep the balance.}) 22... Nf6 23. Bh3 $1 {White correctly opens up the position - the bishops need more space! However, the king is getting exposed now.} (23. Qb3 { was too passive:} Rfe8 24. Bf2 Bb2 $15) 23... g6 24. e4 dxe4 25. fxe4 Bb2 $1 { This brave attempt to play for a win was fully justified.} ({After} 25... Ng4 26. exf5 Rxf5 27. Rxf5 gxf5 28. Bf2 Bb2 29. Re1 $11 {Black wouldn't be able to win the Pa2, so White should be OK.}) 26. exf5 Qxa2 27. Bf2 {Anand's move is natural - White is connecting the rooks, so the pieces are located more harmoniously. However, this loss of tempi allows Magnus to stabilise the situation on the kingside.} (27. Rf2 $1 {was safer:} Rad8 28. Rxd8 Rxd8 29. Bc3 {and White neutralises the dangerous passer:} Nd5 30. f6 Kf7 31. Bxb2 axb2 32. Qxb2 Qxb2 33. Rxb2 {with a drawish endgame.}) 27... g5 $1 28. Rfe1 $2 {White doesn't have time for a slow improvement - the Pa2 is simply too strong!} ({ The correct approach would be} 28. Bg2 Qf7 29. Bd4 $1 Bxd4+ 30. Rxd4 {Now, when the dark-squared bishop is gone, White is able to stop the pawn:} Ng4 31. Qd2 a2 32. Qxg5+ Qg7 33. Qxg7+ Kxg7 34. Ra1 Ra4 35. Rd2 Rfa8 36. b5 Rb4 (36... Ne5 37. bxc6 bxc6 38. f6+ $1 Kxf6 39. Rf2+ Ke6 40. Re2 {and Black cannot make any progress.}) 37. Rdxa2 Rxa2 38. Rxa2 Rb1+ 39. Bf1 cxb5 (39... Ne3 40. Rf2 cxb5 41. Rf3 $11) 40. Re2 Kf6 41. h3 Ne5 42. Kf2 {White should be able to achieve a draw quite easily.}) 28... Qf7 $1 29. Re6 $1 {Vishy manages to find the best way to develop his counterplay.} (29. Rd6 {was much worse:} Rfe8 30. Rde6 Ng4 31. Bxg4 hxg4 32. Qb3 Rxe6 33. fxe6 Qf3 34. Qc4 Qd5 35. Qc2 Kg7 36. e7 Re8 37. Re3 Bd4 38. Rxa3 Rxe7 $19) 29... Ng4 $2 {This natural move is not the best from an objective point of view, though White's task is becoming extremely tough.} ({After the correct} 29... Rfe8 $1 30. b5 cxb5 31. Bg2 b4 32. Bf1 Kh8 33. Bc4 Rxe6 34. fxe6 Qe7 $17 {White still would have some counter-chances, but Black's advantage is indisputable there.}) 30. Bxg4 hxg4 31. Rg6+ Kh7 32. Rd7 $4 {That desperate move leads to a quick loss.} ({At the same time, Vishy could have escaped by means of} 32. Re6 $1 Rfe8 (32... Qxf5 33. Rd7+ Kg8 34. Rg6+ Kh8 35. Rh6+ $11) 33. Be3 $1 {It turns out, that White has enormous attacking resources everywhere:} Be5 $1 (33... Rxe6 34. fxe6+ Qg6 35. Rd7+ Kh6 (35... Bg7 36. Qa2 {leads nowhere}) 36. Bxg5+ $1 Kxg5 37. h4+ gxh3 38. Qd2+ Kh5 39. Qe2+ Qg4 40. Rh7+ Kg5 41. Qe3+ Kf5 42. Rf7+ Bf6 43. Qf2+ Ke4 44. Rxf6 h2+ 45. Kxh2 Rh8+ 46. Kg1 Qd1+ 47. Qf1 Qxf1+ 48. Rxf1 Kd5 49. Ra1 $11) 34. h4 $3 gxh3 35. Rg6 Bg7 36. Rd7 $3 Qxd7 37. f6 Qd1+ 38. Qxd1 Kxg6 39. Qd3+ Kxf6 40. Bd4+ Kf7 41. Qf5+ Kg8 42. Bxg7 Kxg7 43. Qxg5+ {with perpetual.}) 32... Qxd7 $19 {Unfortunately, there are not many pieces left. Black easily wins now. } 33. f6 Qd1+ (33... Rxf6 {was also good enough:} 34. Rxf6+ Kg8 35. Rg6+ Bg7 36. Qa2+ Qf7 $19) 34. Qxd1 Kxg6 35. Qd3+ Kh6 36. h4 gxh3 0-1
ipsissimus 07-Dec-17, 11:55	We can expect White to play 7...Qe7 Martin
redfoxrising 07-Dec-17, 17:48	7 b3 is my vote
dmaestro 07-Dec-17, 21:13	I support b3.
clashofpawns 07-Dec-17, 21:13	b3 works for me
ipsissimus 07-Dec-17, 23:03	Votes so far 7.b3 ipsi elyhim redfox dmaestro clash We need votes from: easy ace canuktuff deepthough Martin
canuktuff 08-Dec-17, 05:06	Bf4 with all respect to the higher caliber players in our team ! this game is a learning experience taking into consideration that our team is trying to win this game and also taking into consideration the higher caliber players at the other side ! i looked into b3 move and found it making our position conservative and probably giving black a chance to initiate the game play and take the tempo ! but then i am lower category player compare to our higher rating players . i still stand by my choice of play and find it give a variety of options i vote Bf4
clashofpawns 08-Dec-17, 05:10	canuktuff I tend to agree with your assessment of b3. I don't think Bf4 is the solution though. I suspect we are making slightly suboptimal opening moves but I'm hoping it will be ok by the time we reach the middle game. At that point I'll need to be a little more thorough with my explanation of my moves. I'm currently a tad underrated so some people may not weigh my suggestions as heavily as others.
canuktuff 08-Dec-17, 05:17	clashofpawns /deepthough any player deepthough will certify is a strong contender in the game i will tip my hat to and follow his recommendations ! ok but i still dont like b3 so i wait till the rest of players vote and i will be the last to vote .
elyhim 08-Dec-17, 08:49	There are three reason why I wish to play 6. b3. However these are my personal reasons. #1 it defends c4 #2 after 6. b3 and 7. Bb2 we keep the bishop pair and support e5. On which we will place a Knight. With the bishop on b2 black can not simply exchange the Knight because dxe5 would put black in annoying bind on d6 and f6. #3 b3 makes active play on the queen side possible with a4-a5 etc. As for the assessment that 6. b3 is a sub-optimal move. That is not according to my database of 8 million 2500+ rating list. Out 1100 games it scores 65% in white's favor with 10% draw rate and 5% in black's favor.
the-sigularity 08-Dec-17, 09:06	current position White to move
the-sigularity 08-Dec-17, 09:32	Terence What does your database show for Ne4? Just asking, because I do not use database, or any other resource.
canuktuff 08-Dec-17, 09:53	elyhim back in 1993 i played against GM kevin spraggitte at Canadian chess championship here in London Ont on board one .he played Sicilian defense against me .and when i pinned his Nc6 with my bishop ,we all know that exchange bishop with knight is not recommended ,never the less i did exchange and yes i lost the game at the end but not before i applied a great deal of pressure on him ! what i mean here is ,yes after 6000 years of chess and with all these books on chess i believe there is still a chance of exploration in the game especially kevin spraggitte him self told me i will have to analyse this variation a lot more from now on ! as for your reasons ... reason 1 is defense reason 2 and 3 are preparation and preparations and we are white with a chance of testing the other side ability to find the best move ! i play aggressive chess winning or losing ! lol
deepthough 08-Dec-17, 11:56	considerations the plan with b3 is playable but let to black a plan of placed the knight in b4, support by a5 and attack on both flanks, Bf4 let weak our castle, both moves are well know by black, i like question the stonewall and if you see the variant giving here in database is very good for us, for this reason i vote for Qb3 now
the-sigularity 08-Dec-17, 13:42	What I see with Ne5 After looking at the board, I see that I made a slight error of Ne4 instead of Ne5 which is the correction I have now made. Ne5 is a variation of the stonewall, and if Bd3XN, de threatens the knight which has to move either d2 or h5, when Qd4 will give white the lead and guard c4 simultaneously.
canuktuff 08-Dec-17, 18:26	Qb3 i completely ignored this move which is an error by me ! probably because my focus was on the king side ..but it does land well with me ! i also vote for it
ipsissimus 09-Dec-17, 00:21	Votes so far b3 ipsi elyhim refox clash Ne5 easy Qb3 deepthough canuktuff If I have misunderstood your vote please correct me. We still need more votes as there is a wide distribution of preferred moves. The top moves in ChessBase are: Move-------Occurs----%Score--Last year played 7.b3--------4052------57.6---2017 7.Nc3--------865------57.9---2017 7.Bf4---------849------58.2---2017 7.Qc2--------756------62.4---2017 7.Nd2--------235------49.8---2017 7.Ne5--------110------58.-----2016 Qb3 is far down on the list and has only been playing 31 times. A percentage is not given neither is the last time played or the players who like this move. This indicates to me that there is something wrong with this move even if we cannot see what it is. I am not in the habit of second-guessing grandmasters so I suggest that we stick with one of the top moves. Martin
deepthough 09-Dec-17, 07:06	Ipsi This game is for learn and sure Qb3 is a surprise for the other team, we have more options if play in our water than fall in the preparation of the strong other team, and the habit change constantly, if magnus Carlsen play this variant tomorrow, everybody make famous Qb3 then Regards Luis
canuktuff 09-Dec-17, 09:33	ipsissimus i must say your work in providing all this data chess is very impressive ! i stopped reading and studying long time ago and only recently (a year or so) i am back in chess with a lot more freedom and time . i consider the benefit of learning in this game is being achieved and all thanks to you !
ipsissimus 09-Dec-17, 22:21	I need some more votes We have two days and 20 hours to move and I still need a few more of you to voice your opinion. One thing that we should remember is that cyrano is on the other team. He has Grandmaster strength. We are not going to surprise him with anything. Don't even try to play unusual moves because they will not work. I played a 4 game match here on Fiat Lux against this man and the results were 1 loss and 3 draws. My overall record is 0 wins, 2 losses and 4 draws. I know how strong he is. So please vote. Martin
ipsissimus 11-Dec-17, 02:11	Votes so far We have 4 votes for b3 and I will play this move if I get no further responses in the next 30 hours or so. So please vote. Martin
ipsissimus 11-Dec-17, 21:19	Last Call! I will make the move that has the most votes at this point which is 7.b3 and I will do this before I go to bed tonight which will be in 3 to 4 hours. So now is the time to post. Martin
the-sigularity 11-Dec-17, 21:41	I vote for Qb3 Although I realize it is only3 to two vote, perhaps some that voted for b3 will change their vote also.
ipsissimus 12-Dec-17, 00:50	We have played 7.b3 I honestly believe that this is the best move. I now need your input but I suspect that we can expect 7...Qe7. Please post your own opinions. Martin
ipsissimus 12-Dec-17, 01:10	7.b3 The current position is: game Martin
the-sigularity 12-Dec-17, 09:17	IMHO Although b3 Is a fairly well defensive move, we have neglected to provide a good response for the black knight going either to a white square at e4, or g4. I expect this black will take advantage of this on their next move because it is a place for initiating an attack on our king with the rook and queen after they castle. Hopefully we might be able to parry this by moving our knight to e5 after they move next.
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