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saintinsanity
01-Jul-14, 09:52
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 after
Our pawn is attacked twice and there is no way to defend it. We would have to immediately push again to b4 and the knight can hop right back to c4.
After 16 Nfd4 we are protecting the b3 square. Now if we play b3 and his knight jumps to a5 we can protect it with Rb1. This also serves to get the rook off that long diagonal with his dark square bishop threatening.
I like moving the f knight because the e knight is protecting c3, which becomes weak after we play b3
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What I was trying to say last time, but wasn't very clear , was that Nfd4 followed by Rad8 pins the knight to our rook on d1, and any attempt to take the black bishop when it takes b3 would result in the loss of our rook on d1. Maybe I'm way out to lunch, but that's the way I see it???
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And puts our king in check.
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good observation. while we might lose the d-file (which may be enough reason not to do it), moving the N on e2 to d4 and then putting our rook on e1 is one way to solve the threat to the rook. the e-file may not be an awful place for it (no black pawn on it). then we' might be able to unblock the other rook (by guarding the b pawn with a rook on e2). all pretty elaborate and slow. but we have a problem at a1 and c1.
and re the d file. at the moment, even without a black rook on it it's a hazardous place for our rook. of course in many cases we'd probably want to keep the rook on it. but unless we want to keep playing without our B and other rook, we might have to take unusual measures. hope to find a better solution after dinner. too darn busy this week...
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I understand and agree that b3 would be a problem.
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Doesn't seem that bad, and it's not an entire pin. However, it is a half pin, as your talking about N V. R In a pin, that is, not half pin, N's pinned to Q. But, the position looks like this, And, I agree that it would be a nuicanse for black. However, I think that best, instead, because as hogyphysshe noted, we might have to take unusual measures. This is quite unusual, but I think that the best move, here, is Bd2 This way, we can bring the N safely to d4. And, in it's own way, it's a conditional move, for if he half pins the N, we can easily get out of it, as there are now two, as opposed to, one defender, the d R and DSB. What do you guys think?
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saintinsanity
01-Jul-14, 16:35
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I see the problem
which Les was talking about.
I think we have been in a bad position for a while now.
I'm starting to think b4 might be our best move.
Then we can play jkarp's suggestion of Bd2 without losing our b-pawn.
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would love to play Bd2 except that it loses the pawn. now maybe that's ok. or maybe not. for example, 16.Bd2 Nxb2 (attacking our rook), 17.Rb1 Nc4 (attacking our bishop), 18.Nxe6 and so on.
so, take the loss of our b-pawn into account and find a sequence that we control and where we come out ahead.
OR, he ignores the pawn and just takes the bishop leaving black with 2 Bs and white with 2 Ns in a semi-open game, ...theoretically bad for us? I think probably yes.
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post immediately above is in response to jkarp's
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saintinsanity
01-Jul-14, 16:43
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I think he has enough to take the pawn and STILL punish us with the bishops.
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saintinsanity
01-Jul-14, 16:44
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In that line we have to leave a knight on f3 to guard the bishop in case we move it to d2.
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b4 and the knight can sit on c4 for quite a while, with no pawn, lsb, or Q to push it away or capture it. not that I like the pawn where it is.
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saintinsanity
01-Jul-14, 17:01
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I agree
But there seems to be little else we can do about it.
We could play b3, then if he goes Na5 we can push b4. If he goes back to c4 we have gained a move and now we can play Bd2
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an option...
16.e4 with an eye toward exchanging our N for two pawns. for example 16.e4 Rfd8, 17.Rxd8+ Rxd8, 18.Nxg5 hxg5, 19.Bxg5.
we go down a pawn but now the rook and B are in the game. they had been reduced at least a pawn in value by being pretty much out of the game. his king safety being reduced also counts for some value. so perhaps we wouldn't be down a full pawn of value.
a bit extreme but I thought I'd mention it. interesting since it leads to a consideration of the relative value of pieces in terms of what they can and can't do..
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Actually, agree with pawntificator's last post, believe it or not. Come to think of it, this is actually why I voted for b3. Note: one way or another, you could still get the DSB out. But, one must see the larger picture, and remember, gaining tempo is extremely important.
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I disagree with hogfyshhe, and here's why. Against a much stronger player, it generally isn't a good idea to give things away, not even a pawn. Note: That while you always have a chance, one pawn is what usually what makes or breaks a game. And, this is a well known chess fact.
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saintinsanity
01-Jul-14, 17:18
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yes
and we would also lose another pawn on b2 after hogfyshhe's line. I'm not opposed to introducing imbalances in the position, but we can't lose too much.
The problem with the b3-b4 push is that, after we move our Bishop to d2 his knight can just go to b2 and chase our Rook off the d-file.
We are in a tight spot.
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So, the position, if we were to play b3, say he attacks and then we played b4, the position would look like this. And, I like, from white's POV. In fact, I've done things like that against my coach, but I only do this if I know it can gain tempo where you advance a pawn, you wind up in trouble like you would here, if the pawn. Then, you get yourself out of it by moving the same pawn another square. And doing that kind of thing, led to, at least a draw against a Class A Player.
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This is the last thing I want, as well. And, Bd2, as you note, also loses a pawn. This brings us back to square one. What are we going to do? In other words, what should we play, in this position?
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I think that the immediate b4 would be our best response. This prevent him from doing any damage, with his N.
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saintinsanity
01-Jul-14, 17:26
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How about this line? Move order is important
1. Nfd4 Rfd8
2. b3 Na5
3. b4
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In theory, this would work, but as noted by lesplay, black has that half pin against us.
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hey, it's a theory club and I'm just talking a little theory. note we wouldn't lose at d2 because his R is attacked.
and jkarp, if our R and B have severely reduced value due to being out of the game, then those are things we've already given up, or rather that black has repressed with the same result. yes, it is probably too much to give up the N at this stage of the game. but we would be gaining value in ways that are harder to see than just having or not having a piece (active pieces for us and reduced safety for his king being things that have value).
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that's not bad pawntificator.
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True, and I'm starting to lean more towards the move that pawntificator said above. But, I looked at b4, and I feel that it should benefit our position. It comes off very awkward and silly looking for white, this time. But, this is how the position would appear. As said earlier, although I'm flexible, it prevents black from doing damage with his N
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Actually, @pawntificator: I like your line even more.
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saintinsanity
01-Jul-14, 17:48
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It's still got problems
I'm going to see what everyone else thinks before I make my final vote.
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I'm on the same page.
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saintinsanity
01-Jul-14, 17:56
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It looks like we have considered
16. b3
16. b4
16. Nfd4
16. Ned4
16. e4
Did I miss any?
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16.Bd2 was mentioned.
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