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possible alternate response by black...
16.Nfd4 Rfd8
17.b3 c5
but it may not be that bad...
18.bxc4 cxd4
19.exd4 Bxd4
mobility improved and gets rid of isolated pawn
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saintinsanity
01-Jul-14, 18:11
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Yes, I looked at that and thought it would be good for us. I think WB is going to play a move that does not make our game any easier, no matter what we do.
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 bringing diagram to this page
2.d4, h6
3.Bc4, a6
4.Qh5, d5
5.exd5, Nf6
6.Qd1,Nxd5
7.Ne2, Nc6
8.a3, Bg7
9.c3, e5
10.dxe5, Be6
11.Nd2, Nxe5
12.O-O, Ne3
13.fxe3, Nxc4
14.Nf4, Qxd1
15.Rxd1, O-O
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Sorry, I couldn't play for a while. I propose Re1 to give the e-pawn some support (moving off the d-file is forced at some point: either a pin on the d-file, or a challenge(...Rfd8) when we don't get to keep the d-file, trading or moving away) followed by Ned4 (this is a good square for the knight, we meet ...c5 with Nxe6, and we support a the e-pawn), then e4 followed by developing the bishop. If this doesn't work or it is worse than what has already been proposed then I vote for the b3 Na5 b4 Nc4 line, and I think inserting N(either)d4 R(either)d8 is a bad idea since it places us in a annoying pin.
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I think that b3 Na5 b4 Nc4 is best route, and agree with cplusplus11-as I previously pointed out-that the pin brought about by Nd4 Rd8 should be avoided.
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I agree with both cplusplus11 and lesplay. But, considering that the worse will happen, given that you have to prepare for anything and everything, I strongly agree with lesplay's assessment.
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good idea cplusplus. I think he'll move the bishop rather than lose it with with Nxe6 and that therefore ...c5 would not be first.
I like the R on e1. and it is smarter to play that 1st before a knight move AND delays our having to commit to WHICH knight (I feel like moving the knight on e2 might be better, ...if we can afford to take it off of defending c3).
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saintinsanity
01-Jul-14, 19:17
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I don't think we should voluntarily vacate the d-file
It's one of our few pluses in this position, even though we can't infiltrate on any square, yet.
If we move off the d-file he is going to have his rooks doubled on d3 and d8 in no time.
I'd much rather play e4, or even a4
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I agree with pawntificator that we shouldn't voluntarily vacate the d-file. If we did that, Black would probably possess it without too much delay.
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so what is the best move? I don't mind the sequence pawntificator suggested earlier and like that Nd4 and b3 are attacking (even though Nd4 may lead to a pin of our knight). Re1 on the other hand does not force anything and could be followed by the hideous ...c5 taking away the Nd4 option. I still think the e file could be a good place for our rook at some point.
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saintinsanity
01-Jul-14, 20:11
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How about Kf2?
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We can develop our bishop by playing Bc1-d2-e1-g3. The problem Bd2 hangs our b2-pawn, so we need to either play b3 Na5 b4 Nc4 or find a better way to release the bishop from the task of defending the b2-pawn.
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saintinsanity
01-Jul-14, 20:26
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i meant it offhand
But a4 doesn't look so bad
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I agree that we shouldn't vacate the d file, for the same reason. Note: That doubled R's are very dangerous. Talk about Q sacs, here's something interesting, although my coach didn't sac it. He did, however, blunder his Q. So, I should've won with best play. But, I made a similar mistake and allowed him to double his R's. Those doubled R's proved to be killer, so he was able to pull a swindle. And, that mistake that I made is quite similar to what would happen if we allowed him to double up.
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saintinsanity
01-Jul-14, 20:41
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if we could get our a-pawn to a5 then b3 would be pretty good.
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I like your idea, but the only problem is that the a pawn is on the third rank. The only way then to get to the fifth rank is to play a4 right away. But, I don't see how a4 will help us immediately. As you said earlier, there's got to be a follow up on that.
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saintinsanity
02-Jul-14, 13:49
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a4 doesn't help right away
But every other move seems to hurt us.
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it's been several days with a lot of good discussion. I'll vote 16.Nfd4.
reduces effectiveness of black's dsb, attacks e6 and f5, and hopefully helps us advance our pawns and release our bishop.
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saintinsanity
02-Jul-14, 16:51
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Yes
I'll agree. 16. Nfd4 is also my vote.
I can't wait to see how WB crushes our hopes this time.
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I disagree, but only because of that half pin. I think that after a ton of discussion, my vote is b4. It might not seem good, I think this is our best and will give us some hope, in this game.
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saintinsanity
02-Jul-14, 17:44
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NOOOOO!!!!
You split the vote! We were supposed to be a TEAM!! A TEAMMM!!!!
I'm just kidding with you jkarp. Vote what your chess brain tells you.
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yes, a split vote is likely this move. very hard to decide on the best course. majority will win and we may get back to a more consensus vote in the coming moves.
if it didn't lead to bad doubled pawns, d4 was high on my list for our NEXT move (17), heading OFF the pin. but then I concluded (for the moment ) that as unpopular as it has been and is likely to be that moving the rook off d may be the best follow up. but we'll see.
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saintinsanity
02-Jul-14, 17:57
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Yes
things will become more clear soon, I'm sure.
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...not that I have let go of the PxN, PxN scenario discussed at one point as also being a potential option/threat a few moves along.
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I think we should play Rb1 then Bc1-d2-e1-g3. Shouldn't the pin on the d-file should be avoided because we have to move off the d-file after 16.Nfd4 Rd8 when ...c5 is threatened? Why are we moving the f3-knight, to protect the c3-pawn? I think moving the b-pawn is bad and we should let the g7-bishop bite on a closed diagonal. I hope we'll find the best move.
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saintinsanity
02-Jul-14, 18:05
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Rb1, Bf5 and we are stuck
After 16. Nfd4 Rd8 we ARE threatened with 17...c5, but we can play 17 b3 and attack preemptively. If then 17... c5 we can just trade knights and our isolated pawn is fixed. And after17... Na5, 18 b4, Nc4 we can play 19 Bd2. After17... Na5, 18 b4, Nb3, we have different problems, but not unsolvable, I think
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saintinsanity
02-Jul-14, 18:06
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I like the f3 knight because of the c3 pawn, but there are other lines where it would have been better to move the e2 knight.
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Rb1 gets Bf5. agree letting the b pawn stay put is sound and perhaps will support that.
f3 knight instead of e2 knight allows the e2 knight to support c3. a bit convoluted and I would prefer to move the e pawn to d4 if not for that (and came close to voting Ned4).
alternative to moving off the d-file is to play b3 and both pawns capture knights inward which pawntificator commented he thought was unlikely. but as you say, that moves the b-pawn which is a point against.
we could discuss this forever. that is some large number of posts connected with this one move. vote and if you give a persuasive rationale maybe some will switch their vote.
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After reading it all through several times and thinking about it for a while, I think b4 has a slight edge and I vote for it.
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So, here's where we stand, so far. Right now, there are two votes for 16.b4, 2 votes for Rb1 and one vote for 16.Nfd4 So, it is, in fact, very split.
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