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We should be glad if black plays 18...Bg4 followed by ...Bxf3, because that gives up the bishop pair and trades off his light-squared bishop, where all our holes are on. King safety is not a concern because it is very hard for black to attack our king. All the pieces are pointing at the queenside or on the back rank, and black has no open files to use to get there. The f-pawn will help support the e-pawn. I think 18.Bd2 is best, followed by Be1-g3.
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I had seen the first part of that zigzag (Bd2, Be1) as being a good idea. good thoughts cplusplus re the safety of our king. I wonder if he could put a B on d5, making it into more of troublemaker.
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saintinsanity
10-Jul-14, 10:47
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but
We can't go Be1 until we take care of our e-pawn.
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good point
observation: we are spending an awful lot of this game thinking defensively, often about defending a pawn. and defending the pawn may be the best thing to do. but each move let's be sure to look at exchange options and other options that may justify letting go of a pawn. we don't want to miss an opportunity that gains us more than the loss of a pawn would lose us.
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saintinsanity
10-Jul-14, 12:55
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good point
In this case I don't see any compensation, because our bishop will be on the square e1 where we would like to put a rook.
I like Nfd4 now.
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I think that's a good move. Interesting point, you make, hogfysshe because my problem has been the opposite. Nothing unsound but became that. I was thinking aggressively, and my coach, Jack Stockel, said earlier today that it's not just about thinking aggressively. Sometimes, you have to think defensively.
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saintinsanity
11-Jul-14, 18:59
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really, you must always
Consider both. What you decide to do will have to depend upon the considerations you are capable of making based upon the elements of the position you are capable of considering.
I feel like I just said nothing.
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Why do you feel that you said nothing. That's an instructive lesson.
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I was going to say the same thing Pawntificator said. All these words: "often," "frequently," "generally," "usually," "sometimes," etc, mean not always. A player may have been too defensive (perhaps missing an opportunity) or too offensive (perhaps missing a threat) in one or more situations. But when you realize you may not be assessing fully, don't swing too far in the other direction. Make a thorough assessment and do what the position calls for.
re this game, I'm currently thinking that both pawntificator's suggestion, 18.Nfd4, and cplusplus's suggestion, 18.Bd2, are both at least safe (well, safe-ish). Both have pros and cons.
We don't want to give up our bishop leaving WB with two bishops in a fairly open game. But at the same time, our bishop has really stopped up our game. its value to our overall position right now is low. Can we get get it out of the way of our rook and into a useful position, converting it from "bad" to "good?" not quickly. or would we be smart to try to trade it off now, our "bad" bishop for his active knight?
it looks like things can get tricky with either choice. and I agree with cplusplus plus that inviting black's lsb over to g4 (by not playing h3 right now) may not be a bad idea. maybe we can get black to waste a few moves helping us catch up further (we still being behind in connection with those early queen moves).
we could look at this position a while longer. but we have pushed it in terms of our general time agreement. so I'll vote for 18.Nfd4. It pressures his lsb and I don't mind that it may force our rook to the e or f file, which may be a better place for it, at least as long as it is out of communication with the other rook.
there may be a case for 18.Kf2 (giving the king access to e1 and e3 where it could be needed). and I would like to feel better about 18.Bd2 but the complications look like they could pile up quickly (though it may be the best choice). So I'll stick with 18.Nfd4 until someone persuades me that another move is better.
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kid_at_heart
13-Jul-14, 11:39
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I like
16.Neg3 Just the move I feel for my style of chess I would play. This seem okay to anyone else?
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The problem is Ng3 loses our c3-pawn. Then our rook gets trapped.
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kid_at_heart
13-Jul-14, 14:40
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How am i losing the c3 pawn? i have b2 pawn backing it up.
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Our b-pawn is on b4. The position is at the top of the page.
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kid_at_heart
13-Jul-14, 14:45
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My bad
I'm talking about from the original position after 15.rxd1 0-0 16. Neg3 seems sensible to me.
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I agree, based on what you mentioned, hogfysshe that Nfd4 is our best move.
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wrecking_ball
13-Jul-14, 15:14
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Many Nfd4 votes it appears,but not everyone.Let me know guys,if that is the move you want me to respond to.Hogfysshe?
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bringing diagram down from top of this page
white to move (move # 18) 1.e4, g5
2.d4, h6
3.Bc4, a6
4.Qh5, d5
5.exd5, Nf6
6.Qd1,Nxd5
7.Ne2, Nc6
8.a3, Bg7
9.c3, e5
10.dxe5, Be6
11.Nd2, Nxe5
12.O-O, Ne3
13.fxe3, Nxc4
14.Nf4, Qxd1
15.Rxd1, O-O
16.b3, Na5
17.b4, Nc4
18.___
two votes so far:
hogfysshe - 18.Nfd4
jkarp - 18.Nfd4
lesplay - liked 18.h3 on 7/10 but has not yet voted
cplusplus - liked 18.Bd2 on 7/10 but has not yet voted
pawntificator - liked 18.Nfd4 on 7/10. Pawntificator, is this your vote?
kid_at_heart - may want to vote. Billy, do you have a vote for move #18?
Let's get our votes in everyone. WB played 17...Nc4 on July 6th. WB, we'll have a vote for you soon, hopefully by Monday.
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saintinsanity
13-Jul-14, 17:09
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Yes, sorry, I forgot to say vote. Nfd4
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kid_at_heart
13-Jul-14, 22:08
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Ned4 is my vote for back rank protection with f knight
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by 3 to 1 vote, our move is 18.Nfd4. play on.
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wrecking_ball
15-Jul-14, 16:34
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And the game moves on....
18. Nfd4,Rad8
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So, with 18.Nfd4, Rad8 this is where we stand.
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kid_at_heart
15-Jul-14, 16:42
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My vote for 19. bd2 this way we can have our rooks connected and try gaining some mobility. My other thoughts just to throw out there is getting the king involved with kf2 or even tying the position down with pawn to g3. Just the mobility is so tight right now is why i vote bd2
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saintinsanity
15-Jul-14, 18:11
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me too
I vote Bd2. Although there is something to be said for kf2
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I also 19.Bd2 for the same reason, but even more involved. The first part about connecting our R's. And, it now completes development. Plus, if he takes with ...Nxd2, we just take back with Rxd2, not only just an exchange, but that exchange happens to allow us to double up our R's.
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I think 19.Bd2 might be met with 19...c5 or possibly 19...Nb2. Not saying I'm against the move (will try to vote or put up another candidate soon). Just noting where things might go, 20.bxc5 perhaps not being a good response to 19...c5.
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If Bd2 c5, doesn't Nxe6 win the Exchange?
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After our Nxe6, and he recaptures ...Fxe6, our B is attacked 2x putting our e-pawn at risk (if we play Be1). And maybe that's ok (and at least we will have broken up his pawns slightly). Don't get me wrong, I will be very happy to have the bishop no longer interfering with our rooks.
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also to consider, after ...c5, Nxe6, fxe6, would it be good to lift our rook to the 2nd rank? also, does WB --WANT-- to clear the f-file giving his rook a straight line toward out king's position?
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