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From	Message
baddeeds 20-Jul-14, 11:39	While I agree with pawntificator and kid_at-heart, I also agree just as much with cplusplus11 and hogfysshe. Afterall, this is something that really has to be looked at, as it's part of the accessing the position.
hogfysshe 20-Jul-14, 12:21	well, cplusplus and I both also liked Bd2 the previous move. we ALL want to move that bishop which has been a problem going all the way back to move #9, in May. bringing the diagram over. 1.e4, g5 2.d4, h6 3.Bc4, a6 4.Qh5, d5 5.exd5, Nf6 6.Qd1,Nxd5 7.Ne2, Nc6 8.a3, Bg7 9.c3, e5 10.dxe5, Be6 11.Nd2, Nxe5 12.O-O, Ne3 13.fxe3, Nxc4 14.Nf4, Qxd1 15.Rxd1, O-O 16.b3, Na5 17.b4, Nc4 18.Nfd4, Rad8
hogfysshe 20-Jul-14, 12:31	lifting the rook... gives away the e-pawn AND the bishop! 19. Bd2 c5 20. Nxe6 fxe6 21. Ra2 Nxe3 this also illustrates that we probably don't want the black knight on e3.
saintinsanity 20-Jul-14, 12:35	It does look like ...c5 would win a pawn 1. Bd2 c5 2. Nxe6 fxe6 3. Be1 Nxe3 4. Rxd8 Rxd8 But we don't have very many other options. Can anyone think of a good alternative to Bd2?
hogfysshe 20-Jul-14, 12:45	loses a pawn, and... gives him the d AND? f files, AND a well placed knight! I'm playing around with 19.Rf1 as something of a "cooler" move (one that "cools" a hot streak, ...or heads one off). And pawntificator, you and I both also mentioned Kf2 as another maybe. As much as I'd like to play Bd2, I'm not sure its gains aren't far outweighed by problems.
hogfysshe 20-Jul-14, 13:12	sticking with Bd2 for a second... there might be something in 19.Bd2, c5 20.Nb3
saintinsanity 20-Jul-14, 13:29	I was trying to see through that Nb3 possibility, but his bishop is poised to strike. Its scary.
hogfysshe 20-Jul-14, 14:42	hmm... I suppose so, though once his N moves, we'd no longer have to stay on b3. I see that a few sequences do still lead to trouble. since I'm going crosseyed and have been slow to vote as usual, and since there may be some serious cons connected with 19.Bd2, I'll vote 19.Rf1 gives black fewer targets. allows our N to go to c2 if necessary (rather than exchanging for the B and opening the f-file fully if we decide we'd rather keep it closed). ALLOWS us to capture the B if we feel that is best. reduces urgency of the unconnected rooks issue. R guards and has run of potentially useful f-file. as with previous moves, my confidence that this move is best is low. And it is a minority vote unless people change their vote. fine with me if the other move wins as I'm curious to see what will happen either way.
saintinsanity 20-Jul-14, 15:01	I'm going to change my vote To Rf1. I loathe giving up the d file but it looks like we are going to lose it anyway.
baddeeds 20-Jul-14, 15:10	Looking at the diagram, I also don't like 19.Bd2 for the same reason that you outlined. And, for strategical reasons, based on what hogfysshe noted, I agree that 19.Rf1 is our best move. The only question to think about is what will black play next?
baddeeds 20-Jul-14, 16:21	Looking at the board, no matter what the next move is, I think that we're safe. So, I strongly agree that 19.Rf1 is our best bet.
hogfysshe 20-Jul-14, 16:27	so is that your vote jkarp, making it 3 to 1 in favor? if yes, we can move ahead, unless cplusplus, lesplay, ed_norton, kid_at_heart, or a new member jumps in quickly and convinces us of the error of our ways.
kid_at_heart 20-Jul-14, 16:55	I disagree I still vote bd2 think the rook move is a bit useless
baddeeds 20-Jul-14, 17:20	It is a 3 to 1 vote. @kid_at_heart: Looked at it, and Bd2 appears very good. But, the problem is the immdieate ...c5, and the plan behind all of it is to win a pawn, which we can't allow. As noted, the idea is to look and access everything that's happening on the board. That is what it takes to become a better chess player, as well.
kid_at_heart 20-Jul-14, 17:33	I think Knight b3 covers that and becomes okay?
hogfysshe 20-Jul-14, 17:33	it's possible the benefits of moving the bishop would outweigh the negatives of losing the pawn (it is after all not good to tie pieces that should be put to better use to the protection of an isolated pawn; and it is horrendous that we've been putting up with an extra bad bishop for so long). but I'm not convinced the bishop move is better and my vote remains 19.Rf1. Another case of going with the less bad move. here's to hoping we will play a "good" move at some point in this game. this is another point in the game where WB's comments in the postgame analysis should be interesting.
kid_at_heart 20-Jul-14, 17:43	I see 19. bd2 c5 20.knight b3 (if cxb4) 21.axb4 (I think knight takes d2) 22. knight xd2 think this looks okay instead of being tied down thats just all I see ( I just really am not liking the RF1 looks bad) sorry guys.
hogfysshe 20-Jul-14, 17:48	kid_at_heart, how would you deal with black playing ...Nb2 in response to Nb3, attacking our R and N? I suppose we could stay equal with 1. Bd2 c5 2. Nb3 Nb2 3. Rdb1 Bxb3 4. Rxb2 Bc4 ...and would be free of the knight pressuring e3.
hogfysshe 20-Jul-14, 17:54	re <<<22. knight xd2 think this looks okay instead of being tied down thats just all I see>>> I can't see WB giving us such a nice gift.
baddeeds 20-Jul-14, 17:57	And, I must add that the thing to apply here is the 7 point checklist, as darknite13 noted earlier in this club.
kid_at_heart 20-Jul-14, 18:01	I do like that Sequence you posted above seems way better then the separated rooks and moving the rook to f1. So yes still my vote is bd2.I know we do by votes but mines not changing lol!
baddeeds 20-Jul-14, 18:08	For that same reason, I'm sticking with Rf1.
baddeeds 20-Jul-14, 18:14	Deleted by wrecking_ball on 20-Jul-14, 19:32.
hogfysshe 20-Jul-14, 18:23	great suggestion, but... jkarp, darknite takes that from elyhim who is a great player currently in the top 60 on gk and who I have tremendous respect for. I for one have not got to where I can properly apply that checklist to a given position. here, it has been 5 days since WB moved. And we haven't been using that checklist at all in this game, ...though we are probably naturally addressing some of what would arise from using it. I think it would be great if darknite or WB or another club expert or master would lead us in the proper use of that checklist, modeling how to apply it each move of a game, in a topic dedicated to this subject, or in the next vote game. but I don't know that this point in this game is the time to try to start using it. I know I am not too interested in using it without some expert guidance and modeling. in my limited exposure to it, I found it somewhat difficult to understand how to apply the results of the assessment to the selection of the next move. but if you and the other voters want to try to bring that checklist into this game, by all means go for it. for me, as much as I would like to learn to use that checklist properly, I think it would amount to overload to bring it into this game now and would prefer it be brought up separately as I suggest above. but that's just me.
baddeeds 20-Jul-14, 18:25	I think we should, and one thing to note is that not only did elyhim get that from GM Karpov, I believe it was, but archduke_piccolo emphasizes this in the WTWLTR club.
hogfysshe 20-Jul-14, 18:36	Deleted by wrecking_ball on 20-Jul-14, 19:32.
baddeeds 20-Jul-14, 18:37	Could be wrong, but somewhat disagree because we're getting more viewers commenting in this thread and getting a piece of the action, as they say.
hogfysshe 20-Jul-14, 18:50	kid_at_heart, you may be on to something pawntificator also looked ad Nb3 and saw potential trouble. Let's hold on finalizing this vote and see if we can figure out if the best possible Bd2 c5, Nb3 scenario is better than the worst Rf1 scenario. pawntificator, do you see another scenario connected with Nb3 that looks bad that we should look at? if people have had enough of this move, let's move on. but I'm happy to give it another day or so if you guys are.
baddeeds 20-Jul-14, 18:52	I like this idea, as well. I think we all need more time to examine this position and see what we can come up with.
hogfysshe 20-Jul-14, 19:01	viewers, plural? we've got one that I see, kid_at_heart. and lesplay hasn't chimed in this move, making for a wash. so "one" new "view-er." maybe two since cplusplus is kind of new. but whatever. I believe in that list. just seems odd to to me bring it up mid game during a move we've already looked at for 5 days. speaking for myself, without expert guidance, I am unlikely to have much enthusiasm toward using that list at this point in this game.
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