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dmaestro 16-Oct-19, 11:39	Trump Taxes www.propublica.org The question is: How long will conservatives continue to excuse Trump on releasing his taxes? A majority of Dems now want Trump in jail for his crimes after he leaves office and loses immunity. There will be NO pardons if he loses.
proginoskes 16-Oct-19, 15:46	DM Based in n principle I don’t think a man’s personal taxes are anyone's business What is it that you think we will find in there? Serious question.
apatzer 16-Oct-19, 17:28	Proginoskes I agree with your statement as it is written. With that said Donald Trump is no longer a private citizen, he is the President of the United States. All President's as far back as Nixon and many other political figures, have voluntarily ( not so much with Nixon ) released their tax returns and for a very good reason. To show the American people that the President represents to the entire world. That they have no foreign entanglements, conflicts of interest or foreign investments. That may lead them to act or enact things that are in their personal best interest and not the American people, who the president represents. The other reason is, Donald Trump said he would after the IRS audit ( he probably wasn't being audited) Thefore it is a well established norm, with decades of precedent, and Trump himself said he would. As to what would be revealed? That could only be supposition, no private citizen knows. The real question is What information can be gleaned from a person's tax returns? Trump has had to disclose his Taxes to other entities in order to get loans, etc. But that is very murky and no one really knows for sure who has what. However the fact that he is bending over backwards and spending a lot of money for lawyers to fight the release of his Tax returns. Is very telling.
mo-oneandmore 17-Oct-19, 01:35	prog Trump's taxes are being audited by the IRS, Ptit. There's something wrong with tRump's tax return, and trump has been audited almost every time he's submitted his taxes. The people have a right to know what trump's trying to hide about his finances, because it's likely criminal.
dmaestro 17-Oct-19, 08:13	Prog The tradition of releasing taxes is designed primarily to identify conflicts of interest. Public office holders are subject to ethical rules private citizens are not. Given the immense power of the office, we the public certainly need to know if Trump’s financial interests affect decisions. It needs to be a law we can see now. Furthermore Trump promised he would release them then reneged. With silly excuses; first that he was being audited; second they were to complicated; and then that because he “won” (not a majority) the public should not care, and now that he he is being harassed. Meanwhile the scraps of financial records we have show serious concerns and inconsistencies as well as evident conflicts of interest. Furthermore Congress is entitled to those records under law. Why anyone would believe any of Trump’s excuses when we can draw adverse interference make sense remains a mystery. When he ran for office he gave up some level of privacy.
stalhandske 17-Oct-19, 20:34	<The people have a right to know what trump's trying to hide about his finances, because it's likely criminal.> I have seen this claim repetitively. But how can it be? If there is something criminal there would that not have been reported by the IRS?
proginoskes 17-Oct-19, 20:43	The tax return stuff feels a lot of throwing manure against a wall and hoping something sticks. Everyone ASSUMES he is hiding something criminal there. I mean I guess we could pass a law one day saying it's mandatory, but I still don't like the insistence by anyone regardless of the fact that he is the president that he has to show his taxes to anyone. Everyone is simply outraged when Trump tries to find ways to dig up dirt on people, yet, everyone seems very interested in trying to dig up dirt on him. I'm cynical. And not naive. That's the way I see it.
stalhandske 17-Oct-19, 20:48	I am surprised If someone here tries to fool the authorities with taxes, our equivalent of the IRS is after you in a heartbeat. And here tax fraud gives serious sentences in court - often much heavier than "ordinary" crime!
inhis_service 17-Oct-19, 20:54	@ptitreoque 20/20 eyesight! << I'm cynical. And not naive. That's the way I see it. >> Sir, the insanity and unlawful attacks against the president are W/O precedent! Citizen Donald J Trump has lived the American dream. His story is so American. On so many levels. Yet the vitriol which has been engendered against the man, as an individual, is in a word INEXPLICABLE. Serial killers have not had such a backlash as President Trump. And for what reason? Thank you for stating the obvious.
lord_shiva 17-Oct-19, 22:46	Why Hide? Why is he hiding if it isn't criminal? Besides, we already know he grosdly overstated the value of assets to lenders and understated them to the government for tax purposes. His sister had to step down her judgeship for the same type of tax fraud Trump is guilty of. He said he would release his taxes and he lied. Not his only lie by a long shot, but his lies are covering up something.
ptitroque 17-Oct-19, 23:15	@inhis you wrote @ptitroque "I'm cynical and not naïve" that was proginoskes and I disagree with his last statement. Trump is not an ordinary citizen. A state ruler should be absolutely correct on this subject and transparency, for people in might in a democracy, should be the rule.
dmaestro 17-Oct-19, 23:30	With all the unilateral power the President has its not too much to ask for financial disclosures. Especially given how Trump makes money. It’s not just Trump it’s because he reneged and there are serious issues with him. We need laws in general since the right gave him a pass.
proginoskes 18-Oct-19, 05:41	Look it’s a principle of our government and the foundation for the fourth amendment. “If you have nothing to hide, then you won’t mind if we search” is a notion so alien liberalism and freedom that when the left isn’t being overly partisan can easy see and call out what it is. Stop and frisk and wrong. Passively collecting all our text messages and email in a database is wrong. When we start making special pleadings to violate our basic (classically) liberal liberties we’ve missed the mark. The president still gets to be someone who gets to have liberal liberties applied to him regardless of suspicions.
proginoskes 18-Oct-19, 05:46	What might be a better way than insisting on tax returns is a law the makes anyone who get elected president divest ALL of their assets that are part of a business (I think these people can still hold onto any non business property/land) and it all goes into a VERY blind trust for the duration of the presidency. Basically if you own a major stake in a company, sorry, you will sell your shares and you will put that money with a caretaker until you are out of office. It’s just part of being president.
ptitroque 18-Oct-19, 06:23	transparency for the rulers Example : In France, all the candidates for a presidential election have do declare all their fortune before the election (whether business owning, houses...) - Those declarations are public, of course. Proginoskes' idea, above, seems good. Obviously, it'll be annoying for the potential candidates but if they are not willing to accept such obligations, they are probably not suitable for the office. I also agree with proginoskes about the fact that we should have a private life. A general transparency is dangerous but President is a very specific job with particular tasks. I do not see why he couldn't have specific obligations.
stalhandske 18-Oct-19, 06:40	Transparency We have here complete transparency vis-à-vis taxation. In fact, all income and taxation is available for anyone to read. Not sources, but divided between income from work and income from investments etc. And total payed tax. In fact, each year (I believe in November) the income and taxation of the richest and also of popular persons are PUBLISHED by the press, and creates a lot of envy and rumors
mo-oneandmore 18-Oct-19, 08:57	The evidence is becoming clear that tRump has been a criminal for much of his life. His taxes will likely help prove it, and he probably knows that. The IRS has likely been investigating tRump for many years, but good criminal lawyers and accountants have developed cagy ways to hide illegal activities, and tRump likely has some of those types in his deep pockets --- see Giuliani, etc.
lord_shiva 18-Oct-19, 09:52	California It is sad their law requiring income tax releases for presidential candidates was struck down, and it certainly has not helped that Trump has waged war on California for not whole heartedly embracing the crime lord.
lord_shiva 18-Oct-19, 10:25	D c aaW sac qa|112 C zzzzz Above is my Grandson Ollivander's contribution to this discussion. When he is older I trust his observations will be more meaningful. He is only one. Our president just turned 73. The 7 is silent.
mo-oneandmore 18-Oct-19, 10:38	Crow eddm'\sddfsdcf My (solid black) cat, Crow, just got into the action, but I had to talk him into it and cheat a little ---I believe he's about 6.
dmaestro 18-Oct-19, 10:47	I’m ok with real disinvestment. That certainly did not happen with Trump.
proginoskes 18-Oct-19, 10:48	What is 6 cat years in human years?
inhis_service 18-Oct-19, 11:02	@ptitroque @stalhandske @L_S & @DM << The tax return stuff feels a lot of throwing manure against a wall and hoping something sticks. Everyone ASSUMES he is hiding something criminal there. I mean I guess we could pass a law one day saying it's mandatory, but I still don't like the insistence by anyone regardless of the fact that he is the president that he has to show his taxes to anyone. >> Exactly, the Democrats and the Mockingbird Media have been throwing manure against the wall with Russian Collusion, incessantly negative press opinions - that is all the press has been able to give Americans - OPINIONS. Now they have come up with some more OPINIONS on the president supposedly strong arming the Ukrainian president to investigate Joe Biden's son. They say some "whistle blower" has evidence of this. Who is this mystery whistle blower? He does not exist, just as the accusations against President Trump do not have any semblance to reality. Just more BAD SOUR GRAPES by the Democrats and their propaganda machine which used to report real news not mere slanderous opinion pieces. << Why Hide? Why is he hiding if it isn't criminal? >> It is not a question of hiding anything "criminal". In America we're supposed to have a judicial principle of "innocent until proven guilty". Social norms and civil customs - according to the Democratic Party and the Mockingbird Media do not believe should be extended to President Trump. Hence, another witch hunt! << I also agree with proginoskes about the fact that we should have a private life. A general transparency is dangerous but President is a very specific job with particular tasks. I do not see why he couldn't have specific obligations. >> A president of the United States usually is afforded an honorable and respectable accord. He is given special privileges which demonstrate the people's trust and confidence which his office of political leader of a country generally given - EXCEPT IN THE CASE OF THIS PRESIDENT. The only obligation President Trump has the authority to perform is to uphold the American Constitution. Were the prejudice press not so prejudiced and were the Democratic Party more cooperative in helping the president perform his duties, he probably would be more forthcoming about his taxes, though the law DOES NOT SPECIFICALLY REQUIRE HIM TO DO SO. << transparency for the rulers Example : In France, all the candidates for a presidential election have do declare all their fortune before the election (whether business owning, houses...) >> << Transparency We have here complete transparency vis-à-vis taxation. In fact, all income and taxation is available for anyone to read. Not sources, but divided between income from work and income from investments etc. And total payed tax. >> Government leaders in France and in Finland may report their personal incomes - that is well and good for France and for Finland. But America operates with different standards than France or Finland. No offense meant to either country, of course.
lord_shiva 18-Oct-19, 12:13	? IHS, supposedly? Trump confessed, then repeated the crime right in front of God and country on national TV. Now we have Mulvaney boasting that of course there was quid pro quo, and Donald is right o violate the law. This isn't like when Nixon breaks the law it isn't illegal, but more like Trump is above any mortal law of man. Trump is answerable to God alone, and reigns as God wills. The dark skinned president enjoyed no such latitude. Bill Clinton was impeached over lying about fellatio. But Trump is free to violate any law he wants, and unless God strikes him with a thunderbolt he suffers no consequence. On the contrary, we praise him for it! "Look at Trump provoking nasty evil scumbag Democrats, tee hee hee! Look at Trump abuse his office for personal profit! Doesn't he win! He is untouchable! Truly blessed by the Almighty!"
lord_shiva 18-Oct-19, 12:19	Green Light IHS, how do you feel about Trump green lighting Erdogan's massacre of Christian Kurds? Do you agree with Trump that ou allies were no angels and had it coming? Or do you side with Pat Robertson who frets that Trump risks the mandate of heaven by turning his back to stab Christian Kurds in their back?
apatzer 18-Oct-19, 14:08	There has never been a greater candidate for "The man of Lawlessness" than Donald Trump
proginoskes 18-Oct-19, 14:10	Trump as the Antichrist?? Guys stahp.
apatzer 18-Oct-19, 14:10	Trump never had the mandate of Heaven. No one who confesses "I love money, I'm a greedy person" could ever have had it in the first place. A man can not server two master's. It is abundantly clear who his master is. As well as the powerful delusion that effects people concerning him.
proginoskes 18-Oct-19, 14:21	To be fair the LORD used many pagan kings to get His work done in the Old Testament most of them did not have any kind of conversion. Most were kind of bad dudes at least by our standards.
lord_shiva 18-Oct-19, 15:56	God Sent Trump He apparently ran low on locusts.
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