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From	Message
softaire 29-Aug-18, 23:13	LS Fred Smith, FedEx CEO, was my company commander in Vietnam. He was out on operation along with us all the time we were in the bush. Good guy. My flying company "almost" became a subcontractor for FedEx but the smallest plane they would allow was way out of my price range. I did NOT get to meet John McCain but I do believe I met and transported James Stockdale from Los Angeles back to San Diego one time about 1992. I say "believe" because I can't remember that it was him, absolutely for sure (my memory is fading about that night), but it was a senior Hanoi Hilton POW, naval officer and that is the name that's in my head. My partner in the flying business at the time got the call and we flew up to LA to pick him up. We were told not to shake his hand hard when we met him... he had been injured. We did the trip. It was quiet and he did not talk much. At the end, we wished him well and goodbye.
lord_shiva 29-Aug-18, 23:16	Biological Evolution <<Yeah, kind of like one species evolving into an entirely separate and distinct species lol.>> LOL! Bingo.
romans8384 29-Aug-18, 23:47	A serpent and a snake are two different things. The serpent in Genesis is not at all like the snakes we see and know today. And no, God is not a bearded old man in a robe. High school? Quite a while ago, I’m guessing.
lord_shiva 30-Aug-18, 07:35	Reason I have no compelling need to argue semantics. In my dictionary a serpent is a big snake. So that is the big difference. Neither has a tongue or vocal cords capable of mimicking human speech, not even Parseltongue, which Potter fans will recognize as the speech of magical serpents. I do credit Bible authors for recognizing serpents evolved from a terrestrial quadruped. I debit them for categorizing bats as birds instead of mammals.
inhis_service 30-Aug-18, 10:21	softaire . . . << The original post was NOT about a religious spirit, if that's how you took it. It was about my appreciation for two different points of view being made in a good discussion. >> Now I recall previous posts you have posted. I will try and keep this in mind, and to respect you stance accordingly. And accordingly I expect you will accord the same to me. Thank you for clarifying.
softaire 30-Aug-18, 10:34	IHS Please alert me the moment you think I have not accorded you all due respect. The last thing I want is hard feelings. I do like "spirited" discussion and debate. It helps ME better make arguments and helps ME decide what I actually believe. I usually don't like name-calling but must admit that every once in a while it can be somewhat satisfying. I don't mind taking some guff, especially when I am free to give back as well. And, despite having some conversations that sometimes get heated, I consider all here to be friends and, should they ever get to San Diego, would be welcome at my place. I realize that we are all more polite in real life person than on some anonymous website.
romans8384 30-Aug-18, 11:29	You don’t seem to understand demonic possession, as that is what was happening in Genesis with the serpent being able to speak. You also seem to mistakenly think the supernatural must adhere to natural limitations. As for serpents and snakes, snakes crawl on their bellies; serpents did not.
lord_shiva 30-Aug-18, 13:23	Demons Are Not Real Serpents walked, and bore four limbs. Today serpents slither on the bellies, and are simply "big" snakes. Historically, serpents or snakes represent fertility or a creative life force. As snakes shed their skin through sloughing, they are symbols of rebirth, transformation, immortality, and healing. The Ouroboros is a symbol of eternity and continual renewal of life. From Google: What is difference between serpent and snake? There is no difference. A serpent is a snake. The primary difference may be in the usage: A serpent would be used to describe a venomous snake in literature. And,at least in American English, serpent would be written, rather than a spoken, word.
romans8384 30-Aug-18, 14:15	Your use of Google as a source to explain spiritual matters is hilarious (but quite endearing at the same time.) “Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord. For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited. Blessed is the man that trusteth in the Lord, and whose hope the Lord is. For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit.” (Jeremiah 17:5-8)
inhis_service 30-Aug-18, 15:13	romans . . . God is a Spirit, and can only be related to on a spiritual basis.
romans8384 30-Aug-18, 15:53	Yes, you’re right. Evidence for God’s existence can be evaluated on a non-spiritual level, but one can only relate to God Himself on a spiritual level. “God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.” (John 4:24)
lord_shiva 30-Aug-18, 17:19	"Your use of Google as a source to explain spiritual matters is hilarious (but quite endearing at the same time.)" And your source is? Your Bible was written by men. The men who interpret it for you are men, less educated and far less reliable than the Google community. Many of them are quacks and charlatans. Creflo Dollar. Cash Luna. (Man these guys got great names, though). Jim Bakker. Kent Hovind. Robert Tilton. Peter Popoff. Tony Alamo. Mike Warnke. Franklin Graham. (His father Billy was a decent guy--a genuine Christian). Jerry Falwell. Garner Ted Armstrong. Hal Lindsey. Pat Robertson. Jimmy Swaggart. Oral Roberts. Did I mention anyone you know? Anyway, when you feel something spiritual, that's you. If you didn't exist, you wouldn't feel anything. Would there be anything to feel? While a tree falling in a forest still makes a sound even when no one hears, that is because the sound is a physical thing. What's your spiritual deal? Cannot see, feel, hear, taste, or smell it, right? You just know. But again--that is YOU, and you've picked a faith out of the dozens here on Earth, without giving much consideration to the many others, some of which are superior to the one you chose. What were your parents, by the way? And your neighbors? And your spouse?
romans8384 30-Aug-18, 19:57	Technically written by men but men who were under the inspiration, guidance and control of God’s Holy Spirit. It’s kind of amusing to hear someone who doesn’t believe in God explain to a believer what the believer thinks, experiences and knows, as well as how the believer came to accept Christ. I’d suggest the hubris you routinely exhibit in this forum is a stumbling block to getting to know God. To know God, one must humble himself or herself before Him and I suspect humbling yourself (for any reason) is not something you’re capable of.
lord_shiva 30-Aug-18, 22:03	Clean Out Your Ears IHS does the same thing. I do not believe in YOUR version of God, therefore I am an atheist. Please stop.
romans8384 30-Aug-18, 22:20	God exists and His identity, character and existence are not defined by, nor do they depend upon, human belief or interpretation. You can believe a head of lettuce is God, but it’s not. So when I say you don’t believe in God, I’m saying you don’t believe in the only true and living God. Does your existence, identity and character depend upon my belief or definition/interpretation of them?
romans8384 30-Aug-18, 22:21	There are no “versions” of God.
stalhandske 01-Sep-18, 08:15	<God exists and His identity, character and existence are not defined by, nor do they depend upon, human belief or interpretation.> That is human belief in itself, and I respect it. I would reciprocally expect believers in God to respect those who don't have this belief.
ace-of-aces 01-Sep-18, 08:33	stal is right. God will exist as long as there are true believers in God.
romans8384 01-Sep-18, 10:03	<God will exist as long as there are true believers in God.> Are you suggesting if everyone in the world were an atheist, that God would cease to exist?
romans8384 01-Sep-18, 10:09	<That is human belief in itself, and I respect it. I would reciprocally expect believers in God to respect those who don't have this belief.> People can believe whatever they want to believe. My only point is that belief doesn’t alter reality, and thinking there are “versions” of God that exist depending on what individuals believe is the height of human arrogance. God is God. Man is not God (though many men think they’re gods) and does not dictate whether God exists and what God’s nature and character are.
softaire 01-Sep-18, 10:40	At this stage of our evolution, knowing or understanding anything about the creation of this universe or its' creator is completely impossible. All options are on the table. And, that is not to imply that we don't know and understand things since the creation, but the point of creation and before remain understandable only to the creator. Maybe someday we will achieve it (an understanding) but we aren't there yet and it seems unlikely we ever will.
romans8384 01-Sep-18, 10:49	Certainly not understandable through science, though the limitations of science extend far beyond this subject. But absolutely understandable through the Bible (Word of God) for those who are humble and have an open mind and open heart. The problem, imo, is too many people dismiss the idea that God has revealed Himself and His identity, nature and character to man already because the revelations are discerned on a spiritual level.
lord_shiva 01-Sep-18, 10:56	God 2.1 <<There are no “versions” of God.>> So the Muslim version is identical to the Mormon version? Dagon is the same version as Zeus?
softaire 01-Sep-18, 10:59	Romans I'm getting myself way in over my head in areas I shouldn't even try to discuss but this is where I have one of my disagreements with religion... as I understand "religion". I don't believe a God or Gods who would create the universe have any interest in us as individuals. I don't think it/they are looking for us to worship them or care if we are good or bad, evil or beneficial. I believe that if there is/are a God(s) that created the universe they did so by setting the physics such that the universe would create life in most corners of it and it would proceed from there. And, I don't think God has revealed himself to us as we know almost nothing of the actual creation or before that. Science may someday get us there. I also have to agree with you that it certainly is possible that we may also get to know the mind of God through spirituality. I don't think we are there yet either.
lord_shiva 01-Sep-18, 10:59	God Never Revealed Herself to me.
lord_shiva 01-Sep-18, 11:18	I Am about 100% in agreement with Softaire on this. What art man, that Thou art mindful of him? This is what I like about Softaire. He may be a little off politically, (and not all that much despite the joy he gets from trolling), but on other issues he has such excellent insights. And not just because they align so closely with my own thinking. I would be happy to meet just about anybody here. IHS I think is a basically a decent fellow, at heart. He took the trouble to personally visit the survivors of the Sutherland Springs massacre, even if he continues supporting public policy to encourage further such massacres. Come to think of it, IHS offered no support to the victims of Storm Roof. They were black. But in his defense, I think they live quite a bit further away from him. Not to single anyone out, but the guy so much like Tower919 (now defunct), deep into coprophilia--him I could do without. If I never meet him in person, bonus. Hate to end this on a sour note, so--kittens. I cannot post a link, but think You Tube cat video.
stalhandske 01-Sep-18, 13:09	<And, that is not to imply that we don't know and understand things since the creation, but the point of creation and before remain understandable only to the creator.> I agree with softaire about this. We have a fair picture of "things" since creation (Big Bang), in fact a picture that quite beautifully weaves in different fields of science in accord with one another. Much is still open, however, and especially the Big Bang itself and its causes, as well as abiogenesis on this planet some 10 billion years later. This scientific picture must not be mixed with the picture given by religion. There are several main religions among humanity. Three of them more or less share the same basic book, the Old testament of the Bible. However, different factions interpret details of that book differently. At any rate, the difference between the scientific view and the religious one is that the latter is founded on belief, whereas the former is founded on hypotheses and theories based on observations.
romans8384 01-Sep-18, 13:25	<So the Muslim version is identical to the Mormon version? Dagon is the same version as Zeus?> No, there is God. And then there are false gods. Is that really so confusing? Your stumbling block seems to be your error in thinking man defines God. As I said earlier, God’s existence, identity, character and nature are not defined by man nor are they dependent upon what man thinks.
romans8384 01-Sep-18, 13:31	<I don't believe a God or Gods who would create the universe have any interest in us as individuals. I don't think it/they are looking for us to worship them or care if we are good or bad, evil or beneficial. I believe that if there is/are a God(s) that created the universe they did so by setting the physics such that the universe would create life in most corners of it and it would proceed from there.> May I ask upon what you base these thoughts? <And, I don't think God has revealed himself to us as we know almost nothing of the actual creation or before that. Science may someday get us there.> From a scientific standpoint, I agree that we know next to nothing. <I also have to agree with you that it certainly is possible that we may also get to know the mind of God through spirituality. I don't think we are there yet either.> I think people can know God if they are interested in knowing God and approach Him with humility and an open mind and open heart.
romans8384 01-Sep-18, 13:34	<I am about 100% in agreement with Softaire on this. What art man, that Thou art mindful of him?> The psalmist asks God why He is mindful of man; he doesn’t assert God is not mindful of man - just the opposite. But congrats on reading and quoting Scripture.
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