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Perspective
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 Perspective I have heard some people say that Jewish people are offended with some of these places being referred to as concentration camps. If you only examine the end result of Nazi concentration camps. (Which should be part of the analysis no doubt) then we miss a larger point and an opportunity to learn. Here is an article with another perspective from our Jewish brothers and sister. Read with an open mind. www.vice.com |
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Apatzer |
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softaire What is not clear to me is... Does the punishment fit the crime? Also how we treat our fellow man in the process I.E. hygiene, nutrition, condition's and the processes that are put in place. All of these things matter. Any parent who has lost sight of their child in a store (for whatever reason) knows the panic that set's in after several minutes of not being able to locate them. A misdemeanor has never seen such kinds of punishments. I would also say. It is clear to a starving man. The punishment for getting caught stealing food. It IMHO is also clear to these people many of which are seeking asylum. No don't get me wrong here. There is always the potential for the system to be abused. However the numbers that are actually trying to abuse ANY system are a small percentage compared to the overall number. In this case it is made to look like THEY all are or want to abuse our system. In this way, our government is trying to talk a portion of our citizens into condoning this behavior. It has been my experience, that when someone has to talk you into believing by trying to convince you. There is something wrong. P.S. what were your thoughts on the article? |
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Our president's organization is one amongst many who have been doing this for decades. It seems quite Hippocratical to me. |
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P.S. Yet we attack the powerless and ignore the powerful. We attack the symptoms of what these law breaker's have created and encouraged for decades. Then we wonder why nobody wants to fix the problem. What they are actually doing is regulating a human commodity, that has more supply than demand. |
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IMHO |
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open mind That is a diverse media site and covers many topics and I made this link to see what your source was about and personally it was my first time ever to check them out and it will not be the last as it covers A-Z and even though some of the information I quickly looked over is not what I normally read, open minded I was able to see other information on subject matter that I would not normally come across. Thanks for sharing |
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The punishment for illegally migrating into any country is worse than the punishment for illegally crossing the border to the USA. I propose we make the punishment worse and that may dissuade illegal immigrants from making the attempt. I would also be willing to allow migrants to fast-track their way into the USA by being sponsored by some big-hearted individuals with abundant resources. The sponsor would be responsible for all of their day-to-day needs as well as legally responsible for any crimes committed by the person or family they sponsor. |
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apatzer First of all we are receiving more than 1 million "illegal immigrants" per year at the current rate for that last couple years. We have waves of immigrants coming in caravans. THAT is why they are housed in situation not meant for that kind of numbers. We now have over 22 million illegal aliens in the country. Secondly, these people are indigents with no needed skills or education. THAT is why they are leaving their homes. We really cannot afford to house, feed, clothe, give free medical care, and other supplemental benefits to mostly women and children who will not be productive. The young men that are coming in have a strong potential to be gang members. I know that's not a PC view of most of these people but that's the way it is. If these people had good skills and were valuable in their country they would own or operate businesses (or at least have a job), teach in schools, or be in politics. If these people would apply for asylum in the approved, legal manner and be in line like everyone else then I have no problem accepting them as they become approved. And, lastly, I agree 100% with your comment about employers. They should follow the law or be punished severely. When I owned the flying business, 50% of our pilots were foreigners. We were required to complete I-9 forms for each certifying their eligibility to be here. If we would only enforce our current laws, the problem would go away. But, inho, a country will not survive with open borders and giving away free health care, housing, food stamps, clothing assistance etc. to anybody who walks across the border. |
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Why are all of these other countries incapable of doing the same thing? |
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stalhandske 20-Aug-19, 20:59 |
THAT is the crux of the matter! That is what help to developing countries should strive at. It is also the ultimate and best solution to the "immigration problem"! |
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Can we perhaps defeat the whole world and make them all do well? |
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stalhandske 20-Aug-19, 22:22 |
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I'm just recognizing patterns. |
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stalhandske 20-Aug-19, 23:04 |
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Migrants - people helping them There is a debate in France about it. Some people have been condemned for helping the migrants. If it's against money, they are severely punished and there is a concensus. If it's for free, this is a delict of solidarity and it's another matter. Yet, some have been punished (jail with probation) |
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Isityoustand Haw haw ! People who come in Europe, by sea, risk their lives. They know they risk torture, rape and slavery in Lybia, they risk drowning in the Mediterranean sea but they still do try. Which penalty, worse than torture, rape, slavery, death, would you propose to dissuade them ? |
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Attitude toward migrants - Coherence "In God we Trust" "Liberté, Egalité Fraternité" "all men are born equal in right" "all children have right to be educated" etc. etc. " Parole, parole, parole" Send the migrants in camps, let them starve, drown or die in different ways, support the corrupted government in the countries they come from, sell weapons to their dictators, bomb the said countries, pay them 1.5 dollars a day in their countries, send soldiers to protect the dictators,... But we are the democracy, we respect human being, we love freedom, we are good Christians we give lessons to teh rest of the world (China, Russia, Iran...), how they should behave for we are the goodies - We are a bunch of hypocrites, liars, disgusting rats. Like Dorian Gray, we look perfectly respectable for our portrait is hidden in the attic. |
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stalhandske 21-Aug-19, 05:43 |
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I'm not really on board with the self-loathing that has become so popular in the West |
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stalhandske 21-Aug-19, 07:32 |
It is not self-loathing, it is looking at history with a critical mind. It is also an effort (as small as it may be in a little club like this) to do better in the future. May be it is a matter of having learned something from experience. |
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"self loathing" I do not have the impression that it's so popular. It's about considering the world as it is and not at the way we would like it to be. It's also trying to look at the problems from different angles, considering the point of view of the others. It's also trying to understand rather than to judge. This is linked with empathy, communication with others, consideration for strangers, will of cooperation, the solidarity... which I have advocate in another thread (about Woodstock anniversary). This cannot be reduced to the question of values (for we could all agree about the values), neither is it a question of religion, of culture, of educational level, of nationality... I have the impression that this is a general attitude which has to do with how we, as individual, conceive humanity, i.e. the relationship between our human condition and the human condition of the others - I'm not sure that we chose to have this attitude. Personnaly I subscribe to the following statement : "I can be really free only if all human beings around me, males and females, are also free" Mikhaïl Bakunin |
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It is always easy... |
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apatzer 21-Aug-19, 14:02 |
Deleted by apatzer on 21-Aug-19, 17:52.
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stalhandske 21-Aug-19, 14:21 |
Apatzer |
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Stalhandske However the post title was meant to be (Clash of views) however my phone auto corrected to Clash of pawns. As I have typed that out before. I backed out the of pawns and forgot to insert of veiws. My error. However I thought to delete the entire post because it was hastily written, and sounded kind of snooty. |
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softaire Yes there is a huge problem with an influx of people. What it really boils down to is (Follow the money) Private prisons, some of which are not only Trump downers. BTW Trump said he would finance his campaign and then turned around and did anything but that. But that's another issue. not only are private prisons Trump donors but people in his administration directly benefit from owning stock or earning portions of companies that are private prisons. so now we are trying to increase the amount of time that we hold these people under a false premise or guys just to keep them longer it's even talk of holding them and indefinitely. Because money is being made hand over fist. How difficult would it be to hand these people paperwork, tell them to fill it out and then bus them back into Mexico? No we have to hold them for months. Now we want to hold them even longer. Also putting Billions of dollars into these Centers, with plans to build more. All with tax payers dollars. What a racket! A money making racket. Even the detection centers that are federally ran, are supplied via contractors. Guess who? It is nothing more than profiting off of a problem and making the problem exponentially worse. I agree that there is strong potential for young migrant men to be recruited by gang's. So what gang pops into mind? The first thing you thought of is MS13 right? (((Hispanic gang's))) 18th Street gang Almighty Saints Barrio Azteca Cali Cartel Dominicans Don't Play Folk Nation Fresno Bulldogs Ghetto Brothers Gulf Cartel Hermanos de Pistoleros Latinos Jalisco New Generation Cartel Jheri Curls Juárez Cartel La Familia Michoacana La Línea La Raza Nation Latin Eagles Latin Kings Latin Syndicate Los Mexicles Los Solidos Los Zetas Maniac Latin Disciples Marielitos Medellín Cartel Mexican Mafia Mexikanemi MS-13 (Mara Salvatrucha) Ñetas Norteños Nuestra Familia People Nation Puro Tango Blast Savage Nomads Savage Skulls Sinaloa Cartel Beltrán-Leyva Cartel Spanish Cobras Spanish Gangster Disciples Sureños 38th Street gang The Avenues Azusa 13 Culver City Boys 13 East Side Longos Eastside Bolen Parque 13 El Monte Flores 13 Florencia 13 Logan Heights Gang Northside Bolen Parque 13 OVS Playboys Pomona 12th Street Sharkies Puente 13 Santa Monica 13 Temple Street Toonerville Rifa 13 Varrio Nuevo Estrada Venice 13 Westside Locos 13 White Fence Texas Syndicate Tijuana Cartel Trinitario Vatos Locos Which of these are gang's worse? Granted Mara Salvatrucha is a very dangerous Gang. They were originally created to protect Salvadorian imigants from other gang's in the 80's They currently are at war with the 18th Street Gang. Both of which have strong connections to the cartels. This is just a list of Hispanic gang's. Point being this: most of the rhetoric in my opinion about is designed to: keep it simple, focus on one dangerous Gang. Instill fear so that they can keep the money machine running at full capacity. (That being, contactors and privatized prisons ) The real solution to this problem is. 1. Ship these people back to Mexico, because Mexico allowed them to enter their country and travel freely to ours. 2. Process their applications and hire people to make that process quicker. 3. Fine and imprison employer's who violated our law by giving them Jobs. 4. Make it law that if they hire such people. That they will be also made to pay those people a comprable wage retroactively. That they pay American citizens. But why are we doing? Holding these people longer and longer and creating policies to increase the amount of time we hold them. While simultaneously decreasing the oversight into the conditions in which we hold them. Doesn't that strike you as fishy? Trump supporters need to demand that Trump fine and imprison these employers and ship these people out of the country. But that will never happen. Trump would never do those things, because there is too much money being made. It all about the money. Mammon in action sir. |
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