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apatzer 31-Aug-25, 15:54	Anyone who tries to use the Lord to further their earthy politics will be tested with fire
valley_forge 31-Aug-25, 19:56	In response to Apatzer's post @ 1-Aug-25, An interesting opinion which I noticed is not corroberated with any Scriptures. b the way, what do you think of the politics of Jesus?
apatzer 31-Aug-25, 20:02	VF Tell me what part you are referring to with your claim of not being corroborate with any scriptures. Was it my post 15:54? Or something else?
valley_forge 31-Aug-25, 20:03	In response to Apatzer's post @ 31-Aug-25, 15:53 This post is packed full of your personal opinions, but I noticed you didn't address Jack Hibbs's mesage - why didn't you at least listen to some great Bible exposition and comment on the historical Biblical narrative of God's creating Gov't and how mankind has failed miserably by ignoring the Gov't principle God ordained?. Are you aware of the three institutions ordained/ created by God? The Family, Gov't and the Church?
apatzer 31-Aug-25, 20:13	Frank I'm going to assume that you are referring to my 15:54 post. Also I'll say, you are absolutely right to question me, or anyone else. Especially if you don't see the connection. But you are measuring it to the scriptures which is the correct thing to do. So thank you very much for that. Please allow me to pursued you that comment is actually rooted in scriptures. The statement "Anyone who tries to use the Lord to further their earthy politics will be tested with fire" is deeply rooted in the biblical context of 1 Corinthians 3:12-15, where Paul talks about building on the foundation of Jesus Christ. The foundation, as Paul clearly states, is Christ himself, the unshakable basis of the Christian faith. Everything that believers build upon this foundation—their teachings, actions, motives—will be tested by fire. This fire is a metaphor for God's judgment, revealing the true value and eternal nature of what has been built. Anything built with earthly motives, such as political manipulation or self-interest, is likened to wood, straw, or hay. These materials cannot withstand the test of fire and will be burned up, indicating that their value in God’s eyes is temporary and lacking in eternal significance. This means your statement is not just a reflection of personal opinion but is consistent with Scripture’s emphasis on genuine faith and motives. Using the Lord to advance earthly politics is an example of building on the wrong materials—using Christ not as the foundation of spiritual truth and love but as a tool to serve temporal or political ambitions. Such acts, though wrapped in religious language, do not endure God's judgment because they are earthly, not heavenly, in focus. When someone responds by asking for scriptural corroboration or bringing up "the politics of Jesus," it is important to recognize that Jesus’ teachings were profoundly political—but in a way very different from modern earthly politics. Jesus did not advocate for a political party or earthly kingdom; instead, he established the Kingdom of God, which transcends earthly kingdoms. His famous teaching to “render to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s” highlights a separation in roles but does not endorse using God’s name for political ends. Jesus maintained that ultimate allegiance belongs to God alone, and human governments, while legitimate, have limited authority compared to divine sovereignty. Moreover, Jesus consistently taught values like love, compassion, justice, and care for the marginalized—teachings often overshadowed or ignored when political movements claim his name to promote divisive or exclusionary agendas. Using Jesus to further a political cause like MAGA, while ignoring or contradicting most of his teachings, reflects building with poor materials. It is a misuse of the Lord’s name, which Scripture warns will be tested and found wanting. Your statement can thus be understood as both a spiritual reminder and a warning: it calls attention to the danger of conflating the eternal, divine mission of Christ with transient earthly politics. It serves as a call to build faithfully on Christ’s foundation with motives aligned to his teachings and Kingdom values, rather than temporal political aspirations. The testing by fire is the ultimate sorting of what is true, valuable, and enduring in God’s eyes—and emphasizing that earthly political ambitions, no matter how fervently promoted under religious rhetoric, will not stand that test. This is consistent with the larger Christian teaching that while believers have a role in society and politics informed by faith, they must not misuse Christ as a means to any earthly end. The genuine foundation is Christ’s lordship and gospel, and anything built on temporary, earthly politics risks being consumed in God’s judgment. Your statement acts as an important biblical admonition against such misuse and calls for true faithfulness to Christ as the unshakeable foundation. We should always question one another. It's how we all learn and I appreciate your friendly thoughts and tone. I hope my reasoning is sufficient. If not please feel free to question anything I said.
apatzer 31-Aug-25, 20:19	I don't have issues with anyone saying God ordained Family, Church or government. But when a person uses the Lord to further earthy politics. Their work will be tested with fire on the day of judgemet. Expect it, because it will happen.
valley_forge 31-Aug-25, 20:35	In responset o Apatzer's post @ 31-Aug-25, 20:13 Again, you’re reasoning in attempting to tie Spiritual Principles of the Kingdom of God to Spiritual Principles of God’s ordaining of Gov’t for the purpose of keeping societies under His Providential care through a people who understand our responsibilities to keep our civic magistrates accountable to the laws and civic ordinances which “we the people” have agreed to abide by. There are no governing authorities except those ordained by God. Romans 13:1 / Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. Because (IMO) Godly men and women have abdicated their responsibilities to keep accountable those who have been elected in America’s Gov’t we are suffering the insane political policies with which we’re wrestling with today. In closing for tonight I ask you, please, listen to that short 28 minute message so you can get the gist and overview of what God meant to do when He instituted Gov’t here on the earth. Good night.
apatzer 31-Aug-25, 20:40	BTW One of Jack Hibbs core messages is " loyalty must be to Christ and His teachings above all else" Perhaps it was the way that you titled your post. Did you listen to his entire sermon?
apatzer 31-Aug-25, 20:42	Have a good night also.
classica 01-Sep-25, 03:29	This is a good thread - let's try to link back to Russiagate, the topic of the thread.
valley_forge 01-Sep-25, 07:06	In response to Classica's post @ 01-Sep-25, 03:29 The direct emphasis and foundation for the Declaration of Independence, the Bill of Rights and the American Revolutionary War comes out of the Biblical narrative and Christian Heritage which teaches how men's freedoms and moral boundaries are derived from the Bible. The fact that the current American President and his Cabinet, along with the Speaker of the House are using these Principles of the American Republic in their attempt to dismantle and destroy the American Deep State should be considered by all interested parties in this tread, sir. There's a fine nuance established in early American Gov't which specifically kept religious beliefs directly out of the Congressional and Judicial planks for the American Gov't which Apatazer and I are here discussing. This important nuance has been erroneously redefined to mean that "religious beliefs" do not have a "place in the political policies" of America. But if the historical records are honestly assessed, that POV will be found to be completely false. For how could a religious group of people (Colonial Christian people) who used and depended on their religious convictions for overthrowing the tyranny of the English King on the one hand, suddenly abandoned these convictions for defining the boundaries of their National Gov't?
thumper 01-Sep-25, 07:41	VF What religious convictions do you speak of and how do they relate to this thread's OP?
valley_forge 01-Sep-25, 07:51	In response to Thumper's post @ 01-Sep-25, 07:41 What is your understanding about the American Revolution and the convictions of the American founding fathers? This is a great place to start if you want to get caught up to speed on these issues. Better yet, do a deep dive into the Biblical principles of opposing evil and defending our faith against Satanic lies, etc. But if you still want me to spell it out for you, I will, okay?
apatzer 01-Sep-25, 07:55	VF From my understanding the founding fathers are rolling over in their graves as to what's going on in our government for the last 70 years. But especially so today. Because our founding fathers in their wisdom designed a document to prevent power grabs from any one branch of Government.
valley_forge 01-Sep-25, 08:00	@ Apatazer Spoken like a true anti Trumper! Those "last 70 years", sir; Who would you say were benefitting from what was going on, and who was getting the short end of the stick?
apatzer 01-Sep-25, 08:27	VF I appreciate you sharing your thoughts so openly with me. I understand that emotions are running high right now. After I finish writing this, I’m going to take a short break because I can sense you becoming upset, and I want to avoid adding to your stress. You’re already carrying a lot, and my intention is not to increase that burden. However, I do need to respond to what you’ve shared. But after this I'm going to take a break. Truth be told, I am not Anti-Trump. I am anti this type of behavior and actions that Trump just so happens to routinely show. Over decades, Donald Trump has exhibited a complex and deeply concerning pattern of behavior marked by grandiosity, denial of responsibility, lack of empathy, manipulation, and exploitation. Psychologically, these recurring patterns reflect traits consistent with narcissism and antisocial tendencies—a pervasive sense of entitlement, a chronic disregard for rules and ethical norms, and a readiness to exploit others for personal gain without remorse. From a personality perspective, Trump’s exaggerated sense of self-importance and constant need for admiration manifest in his defensiveness and vindictive reactions to criticism. His communication often shows impulsivity, dramatic exaggerations, and distortions of facts, paired with a striking absence of empathy when others suffer consequences of his actions. These traits combine with conspiratorial thinking and rigid, combative worldviews, underscoring deeply entrenched maladaptive patterns. Behaviorally, this plays out clearly in his extensive history of fines and legal penalties spanning decades. Beginning with discriminatory housing practices in the 1970s—systematically denying rentals to Black tenants—he has demonstrated a willingness to violate laws for profit. Repeated fines for business misconduct, the fraudulent Trump University, improper use of charitable foundation funds, and civil rulings for inflating asset values all reveal deliberate exploitation and refusal to abide by ethical or legal standards. His frequent denials and hostile responses to legal challenges further demonstrate denial and externalization of blame, hallmarks of poor insight and accountability. His vast legal history underscores an almost chronic litigiousness, with thousands of lawsuits ranging from housing discrimination, contract disputes, civil fraud, and sexual misconduct claims to election interference and criminal indictments. In nearly every instance, the pattern recurs: rules are bent or broken to advance personal interests, wrongdoing denied, and aggressive counterattacks mounted against critics. This chronic adversarial stance, combined with repeated refusals to change despite sanctions, highlights a rigid personality marked by grandiosity, deceit, and exploitation. One especially painful facet is Trump’s repeated failure to pay contractors, workers, and small businesses for their services. Across multiple projects—hotels, casinos, golf courses—countless workers have reported unpaid or reduced payments, some resulting in bankruptcies for small suppliers. This pattern of ignoring financial obligations to those who enabled his enterprises displays a striking lack of empathy and a sense of entitlement to withhold compensation, further manifesting exploitative tendencies without regard for harm caused. Overall, this comprehensive behavioral and legal record depicts a man whose psychological profile includes persistent narcissistic and antisocial features. These manifest in chronic dishonesty, exploitation of others, vindictiveness, denial, and an inability to respect institutional authority or personal accountability. Such enduring traits not only illuminate his personal conduct but shed important light on the risks such behaviors pose when held by a figure with immense power and influence. This analysis does not arise from personal bias for or against an individual but from an objective review of observable behaviors and consequences that match well-established psychological constructs of maladaptive personality functioning. The concern is with the consistent, harmful pattern of actions themselves—actions that have vast societal implications when repeated at such scale. This is a psychological and behavioral statement grounded in evidence and observation, not political stance. The focus remains on the damaging qualities and repeated behaviors that signify a profound inability to engage honorably and ethically with others, institutions, and the truth across many decades. As should any human be against this type of chronic patterns of behavior. A tiger doesn't change it's stripe's sir. Once a cheater (in martial context) Always a cheater. What the real problem is our political systems were tired of begging for donations on K Street. So they hired a reality TV star to stir up mass amounts of drama. Now the cash is flooding in from both sides. But they miss calculated this time and we are all going to suffer for it. Including you. The reason that otherwise good hearted kind people have resorted looking to a mendacious, felonious, libertine as their standard bearer. And the reason they have done that is simple. When contempt is faustered seeded and cultivated. Right and wrong doesn't matter, facts don't matter. All that matters is punishing the object of your contempt. And they will be labeled vermin, sub human etc . You've seen this type of behavior before but you can't recognize it. The politics of Contempt will produce the fruit of destruction, it always has and it always will. And that contempt is being seeded on both sides. Not just Trump, he is simply the gilded Bellow's stoking it all day every day. And that sir is Why I am Anti Trump. Yes I did just condradict myself. But I did so to make a point. There is a good reason why I am anti trump.
classica 01-Sep-25, 09:02	I have heard that Angels were present during the composing and signing of The Declaration of Independence, The Constitution and related documents. That makes sense to me. Interesting that DJT has renovated the White House with a lot of gold. It could be that he is attracting Angels.
dmaestro 01-Sep-25, 09:31	VF Your true religion is zealotry and nationalism not Jesus or Truth. Like the foolish Hebrews of old you chose a King not God. We have repeatedly shown there was NO covenant with God and the Puritans for example were fanatics who persecuted and even killed over religious differences in God’s name. If you really knew history you would know that John Williams view of religious freedom was far more influential to the framers. And you would also know that it wasn’t just the King it was the Parliament behind the tax schemes; that the taxes were seen by them as justified for the huge debt from Britain’s defense of the Colonies against the French and that the ordinary British paid far more. That isn’t to say the framers didn’t devise a better form of government including more freedom and division of powers, but some of their claims were hyperbole due to the need to divorce; and you have perverted it and history to pursue your zealotry. You claim to accept God’s will, but in fact project your problems and suffering on others and seek religious conflict; and thus get back what you put out in a form you don’t see. You will dismiss this of course; but one day in time it will be clear even to you. Jesus will be there waiting.
valley_forge 01-Sep-25, 20:07	In responseto Apatzer's post @ 01-Sep-25, 08:27 You're absolutely right, I can't deal with all your arguments regarding this issue. So therefore I will not read your post above because I know I can't handle it. I'll have to take a break myself.
apatzer 01-Sep-25, 20:39	VF I wish you well. A break can be re invigorating. Take care.
valley_forge 02-Sep-25, 09:30	@ Classica << I have heard that Angels were present during the composing and signing of The Declaration of Independence, The Constitution and related documents. That makes sense to me. >> Proverbs 19:21 / There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand. Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers (21) There are many devices (or, thoughts) in a man’s heart.—“He disquieteth himself in vain” (Psalm 39:6), endeavouring to carry out his various plans in life, while the one unchangeable “counsel of the Lord,” that shall stand—i.e., abide in all its fulness. (Comp, Isaiah 46:10-11; Psalm 33:11; Job 23:13.) Isaiah 46:10, 11 / Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, ‘My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’; Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man of My purpose from a far country. Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned it, surely I will do it. Psalm 33:11 / The counsel of the LORD stands forever, the plans of his heart to all generations. Job 33:13 / But he is unchangeable, and who can turn him back? What he desires, that he does. biblehub.com << Interesting that DJT has renovated the White House with a lot of gold. It could be that he is attracting Angels. >> Psalm 127:1 / Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain. Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary PSALM 127 Ps 127:1-5. The theme of this Psalm, that human enterprises only succeed by the divine blessing, was probably associated with the building of the temple by Solomon, its author. It may have been adopted in this view, as suited to this series especially, as appropriately expressing the sentiments of God's worshippers in relation to the erection of the second temple. biblehub.com
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