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The Shroud of Turin.
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 Scientific Advances Substantiate Biblical NarrativesI’m reminded of true crime programs which my wife and I like to watch. One recent case of a crime solved through scientific forensics was of a double murder which only left a couple of shell casings at the scene. Later a handgun was found in a nearby canal which proved to have been used to fire the bullets at the crime scene. The serial number on the weapon proved to be the same one used by an acquaintance of the perpetrator. These were used to convict the murderer. Anyway, here’s another scientific study proving the Shroud of Turin is genuine. "Uncovering the sources of DNA found on the Turin Shroud" The Turin Shroud is traditionally considered to be the burial cloth in which the body of Jesus Christ was wrapped after his death approximately 2000 years ago. Here, we report the main findings from the analysis of genomic DNA extracted from dust particles vacuumed from parts of the body image and the lateral edge used for radiocarbon dating. Several plant taxa native to the Mediterranean area were identified as well as species with a primary center of origin in Asia, the Middle East or the Americas but introduced in a historical interval later than the Medieval period. Regarding human mitogenome lineages, our analyses detected sequences from multiple subjects of different ethnic origins, which clustered into a number of Western Eurasian haplogroups, including some known to be typical of Western Europe, the Near East, the Arabian Peninsula and the Indian sub-continent. Such diversity does not exclude a Medieval origin in Europe but it would be also compatible with the historic path followed by the Turin Shroud during its presumed journey from the Near East. Furthermore, the results raise the possibility of an Indian manufacture of the linen cloth. www.nature.com Thank you, Victor and Apatzer for you posts here. |
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Anybody heard of Veronica's Veil? It's a similar artifact. |
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www.newsweek.com |
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EXCLUSIVE: As scientists claim to have "proven" the Shroud of Turin dates back to Jesus Christ's time, Daily Express has used AI to reveal what he may really have looked like>> www.express.co.uk |
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These AI have gotten out of control. |
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Excerpts from an article published in April 2023… <<The bottom line is that science has shown the image on the cloth is an ‘impossible’ image – one that cannot be replicated. One of the main reasons is, as scientists have now confirmed, the image on the Shroud had to be caused by a mysterious burst of light – that is, electromagnetic radiation. In short, the evidence indicates the Shroud was wrapped around a real body that simply ‘dematerialised’ without disturbing the perfectly formed blood clots on the cloth. That could only happen through an event like that described in the Gospels as the resurrection – an event that, as the Gospels state, freed Jesus’ body from material constraints.“>> <<The evidence that exists now confirms that the image on the 4-metre long cloth is an “impossible image” – one that can only be explained by some kind of “supernatural event”. The fact is the image on the Shroud has never been replicated by science and that’s because the evidence suggests it can’t be. It is a high-resolution, photographic-negative, 3-D image caused by a discoloration of a uniform layer of microscopic linen microfibres – something that could only be caused by a finely tuned burst of electromagnetic radiation that came from the body itself.>> <<The perfect wounds and blood deposits on the cloth were not disturbed by the removal of the body. When you dress a wound in a cloth bandage, it sticks hard, and when the bandage is removed, the blood clots break up and traces of flesh can be found on the cloth. There is no evidence that the blood deposits on the Shroud have been disturbed. It appears that the body simply ‘dematerialised’ in a way that did not disturb the blood, at the same time leaving behind an image that could not have been created in the Middle Ages, any more than in the first century. Despite extensive research by scientists, including chemists and physicists, there is no explanation of how the body disappeared. The impossibly faint image that was left on the cloth indicates that this event was accompanied by a burst of light, which is the only thing scientists have found to be capable of reproducing the discoloration on the microfibres on a linen cloth.>> <<The evidence we have now makes it clear that this event involved a burst of electromagnetic energy – the very thing that can both explain the ‘impossible’ image on the cloth and the raised levels of carbon 14. But despite this breakthrough, scientists are still unable to replicate the Shroud’s ‘impossible image’ – that is, the high-resolution, photographic-negative, 3-D image that appeared on the cloth after the wounds, blood flows and blood clots had formed. The Shroud confirms all the details of the Gospel account of Jesus’ death and resurrection.>> <<The fact is that the Shroud offers powerful evidence for the resurrection – evidence that is now so strong that it should convince any well-instructed jury, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the Shroud is authentic and also that the resurrection did, in fact, take place.>> www.catholicweekly.com.au |
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Extraordinary Signs and Relics Are Not Necessarily Biblical As A couple of days ago Tabletalk devotional magazine had a great study about “Extraordinary Miracles” from the book of Acts account. They highlight how some Ephesians were taking aprons and handkerchiefs of Paul and using these to heal those who had sicknesses and were tormented by evil spirits. The study focuses on the issue of “relics” such as what is being discussed on this thread. “Acts 19:11–12 “God was doing extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, so that even handkerchiefs or aprons that had touched his skin were carried away to the sick, and their diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them.” Continuing his account of the two years that Paul spent in Ephesus evangelizing the people and getting the Ephesian church well established, Luke in today’s passage tells us about some of the supernatural phenomena that accompanied the Apostle’s work in that city. We see in Acts 19:11–12 that as Paul was ministering in Ephesus, people were taking the handkerchiefs and aprons that touched his skin and carrying them to the sick, who then recovered from disease and demonic possession. Most likely, the handkerchiefs and aprons were objects used in Paul’s craft of tentmaking to mop up his sweat and perhaps protect his clothing. As we consider this account, it is important to note that texts such as today’s passage are used by the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches to justify their beliefs concerning relics. A relic is purportedly a piece of a holy person’s body, such as a bone, or an object that came into contact with that individual. Roman Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox prescribe and practice the veneration of relics, believing that it honors the saints and that God often works miracles through them. Historically, trading in relics has been a lucrative business. A collection of relics could become a site of pilgrimage, with visiting pilgrims creating an economic boon for the place where the collection sits. This encourages the multiplication of fraudulent relics. What should we think of relics and the texts such as today’s passage used to justify them? Note first that Luke describes the miracles that God wrought through Paul’s handkerchiefs and aprons as “extraordinary” (v. 11). This indicates that the Lord did not intend what happened in Ephesus to be normative for the church. Second, the mere fact that a historical narrative describes certain practices does not mean that we are to follow those practices. There is no directive from the Apostles or the prophets to keep relics, venerate them, or look to them for divine aid. God has put the power of salvation not in the bodily remains or possessions of holy men and women but in the preaching of His Word (1 Cor. 1:18–25). Finally, the Ephesian context must be remembered. Ephesus was rife with superstition and the use of supposedly magical objects to produce signs and wonders. Working extraordinary miracles through Paul’s handkerchiefs and aprons, God condescended to people’s expectations, showing that Christ’s power is greater than the power of idols. Coram Deo Living before the face of God The veneration of relics is a mark not of true religion but of superstition. We can be grateful for the saints who came before us, but such gratitude does not require the various practices associated with relics. True Christianity is based on the Word of God and takes all its directives only from the Scriptures. For further study 2 Kings 13:20–21 Psalm 119:107 James 1:16–18 2 Peter 1:16–21 tabletalkmagazine.com Particularly relevant IMO in the further study portion would be to look at Psalm 119:107 / James 1:16–18 / 2 Peter 1:16–21 |
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@ Victor We're On the Same Page, Here “Religious Relics Could Lead to Compromising Christian Faith” Religious relics, while revered by many Christians, can pose a risk of compromising Christian faith if not approached with caution and biblical perspective. The Bible warns against idolatry (Exodus 20:3; Isaiah 42:8), and relics, if treated as having inherent power or worth, can become objects of worship rather than reminders of God’s goodness and salvation. Historical Examples The biblical account of the bronze serpent (Numbers 21:8-9) and its subsequent idolization by the Israelites (2 Kings 18:4) serves as a cautionary tale. Similarly, the early Christian Church struggled with the veneration of relics, as seen in the example of the apostle Paul’s warning against idolatry (1 Corinthians 8:4-6). Catholic Church Teaching The Catholic Church, while permitting and commending veneration of relics, emphasizes that they are not holy in themselves but rather serve as sacramentals, turning our hearts and thoughts to God (Canon 1186-1190). The Church prohibits the sale of sacred relics (Canon 1190 §1) and requires permission from the Apostolic See for their transfer or alienation (Canon 1190 §2-3). Guidelines for Christian Approach To avoid compromising Christian faith, it is essential to: Recognize relics as mere reminders of God’s work, rather than objects of worship or veneration in themselves. Approach relics with moderation and reverence, as permitted by the Church (Canon 1188). Focus on the example and intercession of the saints, rather than attributing inherent power to the relics themselves. Ensure that veneration of relics does not distract from worship of the one true God (John 4:24). By adopting a biblically informed and Church-approved approach to relics, Christians can avoid the pitfalls of idolatry and maintain a strong, faithful relationship with God. www.gotquestions.org www.cnn.com www.quora.com |
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Recognizing Traps Used to Be Common, Wasn't It? Like sexually confused. |
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Interesting. I didn't know about this tradition. |
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Aligns with what Jesus said in John 14… “In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.” (John 14:2-3) <<d. I will come again to receive you to Myself: Jesus promised to come again for the disciples. This was not only in the sense of His soon resurrection or in the coming of the Holy Spirit. Jesus also had in mind the great gathering together of His people at the end of the age. i. “They were not to think of Him as having ceased to be when they could not see Him. He had only gone to another abiding-place to prepare for their coming; and moreover, He would come back to receive them.” (Morgan) ii. “The reference to the second advent should not be missed. It is true that John does not refer to this as often as do most other New Testament writers, but it is not true that it is missing from his pages.” (Morris) iii. “This was a very precious promise to the early Church, and Paul may well be echoing it when he informs the Thessalonians ‘by the word of the Lord’ that Jesus will descend from heaven and gather believers unto Himself to be with Him for ever (see 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).” (Tasker) e. That where I am, there you may be also: The entire focus of heaven is being united with Jesus. Heaven is heaven not because of streets of gold, or pearly gates, or even the presence of angels. Heaven is heaven because Jesus is there. i. We take comfort in knowing that even as He prepares a place for us, Jesus also prepares us for that place.>> enduringword.com |
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Thumper 9:26 |
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“I Know People Are Excited About This, But...” youtu.be Video is 6:29 |
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“Is the Shroud of Turin the Authentic Burial Cloth of Jesus? (Dr. Gary Habermas)” youtu.be Video is 3:42 Unlike Christ deniers who are certain the Shroud of Turin is a fake (but are 100 percent certain molecules-to-man evolution is real lol) I’m probably 70 percent to 80 percent certain the Shroud of Turin is the burial cloth of Jesus Christ (mostly because scientists today can’t duplicate the image on the Shroud or explain how it appeared on the Shroud; the 1988 carbon dating samples were done on part of the Shroud that was repaired after a fire; and more recent X-ray tests date the Shroud to the time of Christ.) <<X-ray tests using Wide-Angle X-ray Scattering (WAXS) have provided new evidence that the Shroud of Turin dates back to the time of Jesus Christ: Method Researchers from the Institute of Crystallography in Italy used WAXS to analyze tiny samples of fabric from the shroud. WAXS is a more advanced and accurate dating method than traditional carbon dating. It examines the structural integrity of the linen fibers at a molecular level. Results The X-ray analysis showed that the fabric of the Shroud is similar to a sample that came from the siege of Masada, Israel in 55-74 AD. The results indicate that the Shroud is around 2,000 years old, which aligns with the historical period of Jesus Christ's life and crucifixion. Implications The findings contribute to the ongoing debate on the Shroud's authenticity. The research team calls for independent verification by other laboratories.>> www.google.com Oh, and I’m 100 percent certain molecules-to-man evolution is false. |
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“The Shroud of Turin: Debunking the 1988 Carbon-14 Tests” youtu.be Video is 3:43 |
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Do you think they would let me look at it? I'd propose an explanation. |
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If scientists restrict themselves to naturalistic explanations for a supernatural cause, they’ll never find the right answer. |
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“Shroud of Turin: Ray Rogers explains why the carbon-14 dates are most certainly wrong (the reweave)” youtu.be Video is 5:39 |
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VIC A Hungarian manuscript from the 1190' an illustration depicting unique characteristics of the shroud of Turin. Pollen samples from Israel from the 1st centurty WAXS , Exray date used specifically to date textiles and Thier findings were peer reviewed. |
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He lambastes the Catholic Church post Vatican 2 |
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Sounds crazy, but… (conjecture is from 3:06 to 4:06) “The Truth About The Shroud of Turin's 1988 Carbon Dating” youtu.be Video is 7:18 |
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Vic |
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@Thumper Wasn’t always the case. Many great scientists before Darwin (imo the greatest scientists to have lived) were believers. |
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