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dmaestro 14-Aug-25, 01:32	“Seashells are found on top of Mount Everest because the Himalayas, including Everest, were formed by the collision of tectonic plates that pushed up the seabed over millions of years. The seashells are remnants of marine life that lived in the Tethys Ocean, which once occupied the area where the Himalayas now stand.”
victoriasas 14-Aug-25, 06:34	I’m aware of the explanation from science. I just don’t find it as convincing as the great flood explanation. And don’t forget the whale fossil they found on top of a mountain in California.
valley_forge 14-Aug-25, 09:09	God May Only Be Known On His Terms Since the God of the Bible is reasonably only “knowable” from the standpoint of faith, IMO, any ‘scientific’ inquiry or presentation for the ‘evidence’ of God through the scientific method is a preposterous preposition IMHO. God is only reasonably ‘found’ when men ‘serch for me with all of their heart’ (Jeremiah 29:13-14); Notice that this search is an emotional or spiritual appeal from God to men who would want to know Him. God as Creator and Bible The existence of God as Creator is a foundational belief in Christian theology, and the Bible is central to this inquiry because it asserts that God's existence is evident through creation and can only be fully known through faith. The Bible does not attempt to prove God's existence through philosophical arguments, but rather assumes it from the very beginning, stating that God created the heavens and the earth. Scripture teaches that the existence and attributes of God are clearly perceived from the created order itself, as Paul wrote that God's eternal power and divine nature are evident through what has been made. However, sinful human beings often suppress and distort this natural knowledge, leading to idolatry. Therefore, while reason can discern God's existence through creation, the Bible emphasizes that a personal, saving relationship with God requires faith, as stated in Hebrews 11:6: "whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him". This faith is not blind but is informed by the revelation of God in Scripture, which is considered the authoritative Word of God. The Bible assumes God's existence from the first verse, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth". The existence of God is evident from creation, as "what can be known about God is evident among them, because God has shown it to them". Despite this natural revelation, people suppress the truth and turn to idolatry, making faith necessary for a genuine relationship with God. Faith is essential to please God, as it is impossible to know or please Him without believing He exists and rewards those who seek Him. The Bible is considered the primary source of revelation, providing the authoritative Word of God that confirms and enlightens human reason. "Does the Bible Attempt to Prove That the God of Scripture Actually Exists?" No it does not. In the Bible, there is no attempt at all to prove that the God revealed in Scripture actually exists. From the first page of the Bible until the last, the existence of the God of Scripture is assumed, everyone is aware that He exists. www.blueletterbible.org "The Existence of God" Definition The existence and attributes of God are evident from the creation itself, even though sinful human beings suppress and distort their natural knowledge of God. www.thegospelcoalition.org "What is the evidence for/against the existence of God?" Introduction Dr. Jim Tumlin, Introduction: Good evening. My name is Dr. Jim Tumlin, and I am the President of the Faith and Science Lecture Forum. On behalf of the Faith and Science Lecture Forum, we would like to welcome you to tonight’s debate. For many of us, the first time that we understood the awesome expanse of the universe, the indescribable power of the sun, or the breath-taking complexity and beauty of a single cell, we were driven by a deep desire to know and to be known by the Creator of all this splendor. As the Apostle Paul put it, For since the foundation, the creation of the world, his invisible attributes have been known by that which is made, even his godhead and eternal power. [1] (1) Romans 1:20 www.reasonablefaith.org
softaire 14-Aug-25, 16:19	Non-Water Based Life? This article discusses the possibility for life to exist without the need for water. It reinforces my view that life will be found to be common throughout the universe. So far, we know that there can be carbon based lifeforms that require water to some degree. It has also been speculated that there could be silicon based lifeforms. And now, they are speculating that there could be life found in ionic liquids. This would dramatically increase the habitability zone for all rocky worlds. Alien worlds may not necessarily need water for life, scientists find: ‘We just opened a Pandora’s box’ www.msn.com
victoriasas 14-Aug-25, 17:32	@Softaire I see you ignored my request for you to identify Christianity’s foundational beliefs and how one becomes a Christian. Why claim to know what Christianity is when you don’t? Why claim I’m not interested in a discussion when you ignore questions that would lead to a discussion?
valley_forge 14-Aug-25, 18:13	@ Victor Sir, did you happen to notice my post above @ 14-Aug-25, 09:09? If you did perhaps you also noticed Softaire's post immediately following it; He ignored it completely judging by his post which followed. IMHO Bruce is not going to engage either of us or any other faith based POV because W/O any help from a heart which truly wants to know God on God's terms it is impossible to have a balanced discussion on terms which are alien to God. Is this a "hill you want to die on"? My intentions and hopes for butting in are for the sake of finding a breakthrough to this impasse which has developed over this particular issue and POV. If you and Bruce were asked to work together on a project by your employer would it be possible for the two of you to come to some sort of truce for that, or would that manager have to replace the two of you?
thumper 14-Aug-25, 18:26	How does browbeating someone about their personal spiritual beliefs and demanding that they account to you seem like a good idea to you? It's not. I strongly suggest that you give it a break.
victoriasas 14-Aug-25, 18:42	When someone misrepresents and makes false statements about my faith, ignores legitimate questions and then claims I’m not interested in a discussion, I think he needs to be called out. I’m not browbeating him; I’m asking him legitimate questions that he’s chosen to ignore because imo he can’t answer them. All well and good.
victoriasas 14-Aug-25, 18:54	<<IMHO Bruce is not going to engage either of us or any other faith based POV because W/O any help from a heart which truly wants to know God on God's terms it is impossible to have a balanced discussion on terms which are alien to God.>> This comment from valley_forge is accurate. I don’t care what Bruce says about his ideas pertaining to extraterrestrial life, God (or gods) and life after death, but why claim the Bible’s false when he hasn’t read it? Why claim Christianity is a “man-made construct” when he doesn’t understand it? Why not leave Christianity out of it? Are Christians supposed to sit on our hands when he makes false statements about our faith and when he then ignores questions that would show him why his statements are false? Bruce is obviously free to believe whatever he wants and to think Christianity is false. But he’s not free to say Christianity is something it’s not without being challenged, Just my opinion.
valley_forge 14-Aug-25, 19:47	[<<IMHO Bruce is not going to engage either of us or any other faith based POV because W/O any help from a heart which truly wants to know God on God's terms it is impossible to have a balanced discussion on terms which are alien to God.>> Whatever Bruce’s relationship with the God of the Bible is it would be most respectful to Christ Jesus who died for him to help Bruce develop and grow in this relationship through our sharing Christ’s love and patience rather than challenge Bruce about this IMHO. Granted, as Vic’s POV is focused on Bruce’s apparent lack of consistency in expressing Christian POV which are consistent with the Biblical narrative - I get that. But our attempting to utilize Biblical/ Christian doctrines to ‘defend’ and ‘debate’ scientific explanations for the ‘existence of God’ is like mixing water and oil. These are two completely different disciplines and spheres of study using two completely different laws or principles for examining two completely different realms of study; W/O a consistent set of rules for examining data - how can men ever agree on what they’re looking at? God IMHO never shared his thoughts with mankind through the written Scriptures for the expressed purpose of studying natural science, so why is anyone using Scriptures to discuss this subject? This comment from valley_forge is accurate. I don’t care what Bruce says about his ideas pertaining to extraterrestrial life, God (or gods) and life after death, but why claim the Bible’s false when he hasn’t read it? Why claim Christianity is a “man-made construct” when he doesn’t understand it? Why not leave Christianity out of it? Why not indeed? Leave Christianity out of this discussion and stick to either natural phenomena or else find a way to bridge natural phenomena to spiritual phenomena so that both skeptics (of the Christian faith) and believers of the Christian faith may compare notes which are easily agreeable to each of you? Are Christians supposed to sit on our hands when he makes false statements about our faith and when he then ignores questions that would show him why his statements are false? As far as ‘sitting on our hands’ when we’re made fools of or otherwise disrespected, are these ‘slings and arrows’ coming because of our obedience to the Holy Script and Covenant with Christ or something other? Bruce is obviously free to believe whatever he wants and to think Christianity is false. But he’s not free to say Christianity is something it’s not without being challenged, Just my opinion. ] In your opinion, indeed; In this world we will have tribulations and many trials, but I don’t believe we as Christians are to invite controversy through engaging with the unregenerated about worldly issues such as this, are we? The world has never played ‘fair’ because without Holy Spirit’s leading ‘fair’ and ‘compassionate love’ are weaknesses aren’t they?
victoriasas 14-Aug-25, 21:31	I don’t think an unbeliever needs God’s Holy Spirit to begin to come to an understanding of Christianity. He needs humility and an open mind. I think that’s an absolute prerequisite to understanding Christianity. As soon as man realizes he can’t save himself and he doesn’t have all the answers, his mind and heart are ready to understand Christianity. And I’ve always been a believer in evidence and came to be a Christian based on evidence, so when someone flippantly says the Bible and Christianity are false, I take it personally. But sometimes the best thing you can do for unbelievers is to pray they get saved, and I’m sorry to say I used to do that more often than I do now.
softaire 15-Aug-25, 08:58	I have said before that I try to answer fair and direct questions from people who I think have a reasonable chance of understanding my answer, live in the real world, and will respond in a civilized manner without undue insults and without calling me a liar. If I do not answer your questions it may be because I don't have an answer, I am not knowledgeable enough in that area, or you fall into the category above. Vic seems to place himself in the category above every time he responds to one of my posts. His ability to misunderstand, misquote, and misrepresent what I have said is getting to be legendary. His posts about my statements are not worthy of a reply. So I don't. I have already given him his due amount of respect by attempting civilized discussion as if he were an intelligent poster, but that fails time and again.
valley_forge 15-Aug-25, 09:12	In response to Softaire's post @ 15-Aug-25, 08:58 My relationship with you, as limited as it is on this platform, has grown to trust you to tell me I have a stain on my shirt W/O your saying that stain reflects my character. I believe you see clearly enough to understand what I am trying to say even if I am failing to say it clearly. A good leader helps lead even if they don't really like the B O of those you're trying to lead. Keep up the good work, I will be praying for you to find what you're looking for if you're still looking.
victoriasas 15-Aug-25, 10:58	@Softaire You have a wonderful ability to insult people without realizing it, to think you know subjects you know nothing about, to rewrite history, to claim the status of both superiority and victimhood and to look in the mirror wearing rose-colored glasses. Remarkable.
victoriasas 15-Aug-25, 11:04	@valley_forge “He that passeth by, and meddleth with strife belonging not to him, is like one that taketh a dog by the ears.” (Proverbs 26:17) Perhaps it’s time to re-read Proverbs? Let the Bible speak to you and not people writing about the Bible. Biblical commentaries take you only so far.
valley_forge 15-Aug-25, 11:33	Would you consider Thumper's post @ 14-Aug-25, 18:26 as "meddling"? And which part of any of the comments which I posted regarding this bickering between you and Bruce would you say are "out of line"? Finally, regarding << Biblical commentaries take you only so far. >>; Are you you saying that these Bible commentaries are somehow in error? Which ones, or which specific comments, please? Come back, Vic, showing us how wise you are, please?
victoriasas 15-Aug-25, 11:54	@valley_forge God speaks to people through His Word – not through fallible men with different life experiences interpreting and writing about His Word. And it’s even worse to look for Biblical commentaries that support a pre-determined and carnal point of view. It’s like putting God in a box and only letting Him say what you want Him to say. I think it’s best to read God’s Word with humility and an open mind (and praying for discernment beforehand.) That’s the clearest path to the truth.
softaire 15-Aug-25, 12:07	VF Thank you for your many posts, both here and in the other threads, which I thoroughly respect.
victoriasas 15-Aug-25, 12:42	@valley_forge BTW, I think a good analogy between reading God’s Word and reading commentaries about God’s Word is a person who watches a movie vs. a person who reads critics’ opinions about the movie. The person who watches the movie is getting far more out of it than the person who only reads other people’s opinions about the movie. And the Bible (especially the New Testament) is really not hard to read/understand, especially if one prays for discernment and understanding beforehand.
valley_forge 15-Aug-25, 15:56	Corroboration Of Holy Spirit's Voice Most Christian people who have shared with me 'words' they have received from their devotional Bible reading and study confirm or challenge my understanding of God's Word. Most times our own understanding of God's Word are consistent with the obvious meaning which is generally agreeable between various Bible translations. Christian doctrines related to the Gospel of Jesus Christ has remained consistent for hundreds of years since the days of the Apostles. These Church doctrines which define the truth of the Gospel have been deeply studied and confirmed by Bible commentators which expand and highlight hidden nuances which have been included in many Bible 'footnotes' in the study notes in many Bibles today. If these explanations are in error I invite Vic to show exactly how Bible commentators have erred, please?
victoriasas 15-Aug-25, 16:26	Why not try reading the Bible directly? I really don’t understand the reluctance and why you (apparently) feel the need to put a barrier between yourself and God.
valley_forge 15-Aug-25, 19:57	In response to Vic's post @ 15-Aug-25, 16:26 Where have I in any of my posts above suggested I do not study and meditate on God’s Word when I read it?
victoriasas 15-Aug-25, 20:12	Your posting history is to copy-and-paste Biblical commentaries and to post other people’s opinions about the Bible. I was simply advocating that one read the Bible directly – without the filter of someone else’s thoughts and opinions. I think God’s Word is much more impactful that way. “Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.” (Psalm 119:105)
valley_forge 16-Aug-25, 12:46	Many Scientists Believe In A Creator "The Cosmic Evidence for a Creator" November 5, 2021 1. ​​Whatever begins to exist has a cause of its beginning. 2. The universe began to exist. 3. Therefore, the universe has a cause of its beginning. Not only does the Kalam argument state that the beginning of the universe has a cause, but it implies that cause is consistent with a personal God as described in Christian scripture. coldcasechristianity.com
victoriasas 17-Aug-25, 04:33	The argument against the above is an eternally-existing universe.
valley_forge 17-Aug-25, 07:30	<< The argument against the above is an eternally-existing universe. >> Which I think I must agree with because I have faith in God's Word. However, this is not the prevailing theory among cosmologists. Universe Eternal Existence No, cosmologists have not determined that the universe is eternally existing. The prevailing scientific consensus, based on observations and theoretical models, indicates that the universe had a beginning. Scientists have revised their theories on the universe many times through history, I believe. "The End of Cosmology?" www.scientificamerican.com "How old is the universe?" www.space.com "What is the Big Bang Theory?" www.space.com
softaire 18-Aug-25, 12:32	Harvard scientist warns world leaders to prepare for possible alien contact Our solar system is having a visitor from "somewhere else". This scientist makes the case that it is actually an alien visitor, implying the possibility of an extraterrestrial intelligent visitor. I think that unlikely and see this statement as a way to sell a book, magazine subscription, or tickets to his lectures. Harvard scientist warns world leaders to prepare for possible alien contact www.msn.com
valley_forge 18-Aug-25, 12:50	<< . I think that unlikely and see this statement as a way to sell a book, magazine subscription, or tickets to his lectures. >> Sensational headlines such as this are nothing new IMO. French Phrase for Nothing New The most common way to say "nothing new here" in French is "rien de nouveau ici". If there's any substance to this you can be sure the Deep State will run with the ususal narratives until we lose interest.
apatzer 18-Aug-25, 13:08	Softaire I agree with you that it is to make money. The reason they don't make contact is like you and I going to the zoo and when we get to the silverback Gorilla enclosure, I tap you on the shoulder and say, go in and make first contact.
softaire 18-Aug-25, 16:34	Apatzer   Good One!
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