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lord_shiva 27-Jan-25, 10:19	gRoper’s Vision of Middle East Peace President Trump's Middle East policy took a dark turn on Saturday when he announced on Air Force One that he favored the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from Gaza. "You’re talking about a million and a half people, and we just clean out that whole thing," Trump said. End quote. Groper went on to describe how after razing Gaza the site would be suitable for suites of luxury hotels he would like to develop there. The Muslims protest voting for Groper must be so proud and excited!
apatzer 27-Jan-25, 10:38	Here is my shocked face
mo-oneandmore 04-Feb-25, 16:27	Shiva If you think that" bad you need to watch trump's and Netanahu.s press meeting after their meeting tonight (Tuesday). Netanahu confirmed that trump was Israel's best all-time friend and trump responded that the US would own the Gaza and turn it into one of the Middle East's Greatest resorts. Any thought of a surviving Palestinian being allowed to return home is apparently out the door. www.cbsnews.com
apatzer 04-Feb-25, 17:43	Here is my shocked face.
bobspringett 04-Feb-25, 18:32	Some are horrified, some are pleased, but not many are surprised.
mo-oneandmore 05-Feb-25, 05:19	BOB It's apparently not "business as usual" as you say --- even for trump. Indeed. It's my understanding that most of the world's leaders were shocked and horrified to hear the news about trump's statements during the press meeting and announcement with Netanahu yesterday afternoon. You and I both know that for trump to tell the the world that he and America will be taking-over the Gaza and turning it into a gambling mecca Middle East resort of w****houses, massive amounts of booze and 24/7 party time in a place that's less than 100 miles distant from the world's most important religious area is like a horror story from hell and a near guarantee for war. And the Muslims will fight to the death about it. It literally makes y'all's FICTION novel, Bones, look pale by comparison, mate.
apatzer 05-Feb-25, 07:03	I wonder when the third temple will get completed.
apatzer 05-Feb-25, 07:20	The temple mount coin or Trump coin featuring Donald Trump and King Cyrus. The coin was created by the Mikdash Educational Center, a separate Israeli group, to honor Trump's recognition of Jerusalem as Israel's capital. The proceeds from the coin were intended to support education and preparations for the Third Temple. youtu.be There are ongoing discussions and preparations among certain groups in Israel for the rebuilding of the Third Temple in Jerusalem. Orthodox Jewish organizations, such as the Temple Institute, have created blueprints, trained priests, and crafted temple vessels in anticipation of its construction. Groups like Boneh Israel and the Temple Mount Faithful also actively advocate for this project. www.jewishvoice.org
ragnarhairybreek 05-Feb-25, 07:34	LS You cannot blame Arab Americans for refusing to vote for Harris. She promised to continue Biden's policy of supporting a genocide. It's their cousins, uncles, neices being murdered en masse with American bombs. I doubt you would have voted for her in their shoes either. And clearing out Gaza was already Israeli policy, as witnessed by meetings of excited real estate developers in Israel well before last years elections, planning to sell off the land stolen from Palestinian families. To be clear I despise Trump but there is not much substantive difference on this. He is just stating bluntly what the Democrats preferred to hide behind a show of humanitarian hand-wringing. Maybe it's better to have it out in the open.
bobspringett 05-Feb-25, 12:57	Mo 05:19 I agree that it's not 'business as usual', but it's not surprising either. The only surprising aspect is that he said it so clearly. The Saudis have already condemned it, and they are America's closest allies in the region. So what? Trump doesn't need allies, as he has shown in his treatment of NATO and Canada in particular. Alliances require thinking about how someone else sees the issues, but Donald can only see things from his own point of reference. He doesn't even realise that he is making America a stench in the nostrils of the whole world, because he can't imagine how anyone might have a different point of view. Either he is serious about these territorial claims he is making lately about Greenland, Panama and Gaza, or they are ambit claims so he can 'concede' something for a lesser objective. The recent pause on tariffs against Mexico suggest they are ambit claims. If that is so, then he needs to recognise that this is not a parallel with bidding for a block of land. It is more akin to a kidnapper negotiating a ransom. A real estate deal can be reached without too much resentment, but a ransom deal will always create an enemy, no matter what the negotiated amount might be. That rage might not be obvious immediately, just as a kidnap victim might say 'thanks' for being fed while in captivity; but that doesn't make everyone friends again. Donald should know this from his own experience; he never forgets nor forgives even the slightest insult or oppositions, so why should her expect others to do that? Oh, that's right; he is DJT, while everyone else is just someone he deals with! That attitude doesn't work in Diplomacy; instead, the victims 'make a deal', and then make sure they are never in such a vulnerable position again, and step three is when they start dictating their own deals. Just as an example; think how much it would cost America if the rest of the world stopped paying licensing fees, royalties, etc for American Intellectual Propriety Rights such as for software and pharmaceuticals. Will America go to war to enforce a civil claim by a private company? They might do that in Central American banana republics, but against Europe? Finally, thanks for the reference to my novel 'Bones'. Trump is making it look understated.
bobspringett 05-Feb-25, 13:04	Ragnar 07:34 <To be clear I despise Trump but there is not much substantive difference on this.> Absolutely true. There has been a Democrat in the White House for 24 of the 48 years since the West Bank and Gaza were captured by Israel. Not one of them has gained as much as a square millimetre of soil back for Palestinians. Neither side was ever going to make Israel take a step backwards; at least Trump has dropped the pretense.
bobspringett 05-Feb-25, 13:21	Patz 7:20 (a) The 'Temple Coin' is interesting when you start to think through the implications. When Jesus in the Temple in the week before his crucifixion, he was asked if it was lawful to pay Roman taxes. His answer started with 'Show me the coin.' The questioner produced a denarius, a Roman coin. Neither Matthew nor Mark make a point of this, but it was against the Jewish law to bring that coin into the Temple. It had the image of the Emperor on it, whom the Romans considered a god on Earth. So this questioner had brought the image of a false god into the Temple of YHWH! It would seem that what these 'Temple Coins' are similar; they bear the images of two men. Let's be polite and suggest that these guys don't intend sacrilege, they just see a good opportunity for merchandising. Just like Trump selling his own 'endorsed' issue of the Bible. Both are either ignorant of the faith they profess, or they have simply sold out.
bobspringett 05-Feb-25, 13:22	Deleted by bobspringett on 05-Feb-25, 13:22.
apatzer 05-Feb-25, 14:01	bobspringett That was an interesting factoid that had escaped me. Thank you for the reply and knowledge.
mo-oneandmore 05-Feb-25, 15:48	Ragnar Your 07:34 comment. Most of us already know that Netanahu probably has wet dreams about murdering all Muslims including the Palestinians in the Gaza, but where's your single thread of evidence that Biden at all supported genocide or any other method Netanahu used in his attempt to kill as many Palestinians as possible? I need to see your evidence before I strongly argue your entirely flawed premise --- ASAP, please. And DON"T try to say that the reason is because Biden supported Israel's right to defend it's country from HAMAS terrorists, because that's also entirely and ridiculously flawed. Mo One Founder of The THINK Club.
apatzer 05-Feb-25, 16:14	Mo, you are picking a fight that you can't possibly win. Just saying.
ragnarhairybreek 05-Feb-25, 17:07	Deleted by ragnarhairybreek on 05-Feb-25, 17:09.
ragnarhairybreek 05-Feb-25, 17:10	Mo Founder of the THINK club I'm not sure what part you are disputing. If it's the genocide, the ICJ ruled by an overwhelming majority that there is a plausible genocide one year ago. If you take a look at the case presented by South Africa, it is damning. Several major human rights organizations concur and have concluded Israel's recent actions in Gaza meet the legal definition of genocide. Do you not accept this? If not, why not? If you agree then I think you also have to agree that Biden is complicit. He supplied billions of dollars worth of military aid and supplies to Israel beyond what the US normally does while Israel was committing its genocide. He also provided intelligence and diplomatic cover and received Netanyahu in the White House - a powerful gesture of support. I do not see how you can credibly claim that this does not amount to support for Netanyahu's murderous behavior, but go ahead and try. ASAP. Ragnar Member of the THINK club
bobspringett 05-Feb-25, 18:29	Patz 7:20 (b) Sorry about the break, but I had to go out. The idea of building the Third Temple is often over-stated. As your linked article itself agrees, most Jews are secular and put no great shakes in their traditions except as a mark of identity. The Typical synagogue-going Jew is also more modern in his view of the Law, the Prophets and the Writings. Very few of them are burning with the dream of bringing back the Temple Cultus, complete with a Levitical priesthood and animal sacrifices. The tiny fraction who are inclined that way get attention precisely for that reason; they are a tiny fraction that adds a bit of a twist, in much the same way as the Amish in America attract tourists. Most of the enthusiasm for a Third Temple comes from fundamentalist Christians who take certain prophecies literally and out of context. They even ignore Jesus' own words in this regard; John 2:18 - 22 = <The Jews then responded to him, “What sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?” Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.” They replied, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?” But the temple he had spoken of was his body. After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.> This makes it obvious that the everlasting 'Third Temple' of the Last Days is not something built with hands, but refers to Jesus' Resurrection. But Israeli governments are quite happy to pander to this fundamentalist audience, since they can milk so much financial and political support from this demographic.
apatzer 05-Feb-25, 20:23	bobspringett I appreciate your point of view and your time and willingness to share it with me. And what of the prophecy from Jesus himself I.E. Matthew 24:15, Mark 13:14 ?
bobspringett 05-Feb-25, 22:02	Patz 20:23 G'day! Thanks for those references. I think it is fair enough to regard them as the same prophecy reported by two different writers. Keep in mind:- 1. These verses are part of an apocalyptic discourse, and the central figure (the 'Abomination of Desolation') is itself taken from an apocalyptic passage in Daniel. Apocalypse is full of symbolic figures, often with exact meanings known only to a closed 'in group', so even interpreting those symbolic figures should be done tentatively now that we no longer have the cognoscenti among us. They should not be taken literally. 2. What is the 'Sitz im Leben' of these passages? In other words, what is the context? Who wrote them, when, to whom, with what prior knowledge, why, in what circumstances? Interpreting with the aid of hindsight might be satisfying, but if the original writer didn't or couldn't have in mind what you know, then chances are that he meant something you're missing. Best to interpret in context, without hindsight. In this case I'm making a few assumptions about the words quoted. The first is that it is no coincidence that the writers' words are very similar to each other in the Greek. Jesus would have spoken in Aramaic, so for the writers to come to such similar translations into Greek is unlikely. Hence the 'Q' hypothesis, which holds that many of the parallel passages in Matthew and Luke are copied from either Mark or a now-lost document of Jesus' Sayings, called 'Q'. Why would Mathew and Mark mention this particular saying? Mark was written shortly after A.D. 70, when Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans after the Great Revolt. Matthew was probably written soon after Mark. Both writers were writing to a Church that was still largely Jewish in background, facing the question of how God's Holy City and the Temple could be allowed to be destroyed by the armies of a false god like Caesar. Remember that at the time there was still the expectation by some that Jesus would return in glory and rule from Jerusalem. So the writers referred back to Babylon, after Jerusalem had been sacked and the People sent into the Exile. They did this by referring to the great hero of the Exile, Daniel. They tried to show that this was actually prophesied by Daniel as well as Jesus, so God was still in control. Thus the record of the words, the ascription to Jesus as an application of Daniel to Christians troubled by the destruction of Jerusalem to 'explain' that God was still in control. The Revelation to John (another apocalypse!) talks about the 'heavenly Jerusalem' coming down from heaven rather than it being a glorified earthly Jerusalem. That's all the explanation needed for the Gospel verses. But it is interesting as a second layer why there is the original reference to Daniel. The evidence suggests that Daniel was itself written during the Hasmonean Revolt rather than in Babylon. All the prophecies line up NOT with the usual Conservative time-line of Babylon, Alexander, Rome and the End-Times, but more accurately with Babylon, Alexander, the division of Alexander's Empire (the two legs), and then the boulder from God that will destroy the successor-empires to Alexander and bring in the Rule of God. This Hasmonean Revolt started when the Jerusalem temple was desecrated by Antiochus Epiphanes (the 'Abomination of Desolation' being an idol set up in the Temple). The contorted time-frame mentioned in Daniel has been worked through to show that Messiah could be expected very soon, from the perspective of the Hasmoneans. That gives the context for the Book of Daniel. But that same contorted time-frame has also been re-interpreted by modern fundamentalists so as to arrive at Christ's Second Coming at various times in the 20th and now the 21st century. All you need to do is pick the right calendar (solar, lunar, Jewish, Babylonian, Roman, Julian or Gregorian) with the right start 'event' and the most convenient meaning for 'weeks', etc. and you can get virtually any 'End Time' you want. I remember 'The Late Great Planet Earth' published 1970, with author Hal Lindsey saying "the decade of the 1980s could very well be the last decade of history as we know it". Ah, the joys of hindsight when interpreting the Scriptures! So when you see a convincing 'interpretation' of Daniel or whatever, just ask yourself whatever happened to all those other interpretations that were equally convincing until they went past their use-by date.
apatzer 06-Feb-25, 06:34	bobspringett Thank you so much for the in-depth reply. Very thoughtful.
mo-oneandmore 07-Feb-25, 09:45	Ragnar I haven't YET disputed your dark (in my opinion) conspiracy conspiracy theory about Biden because you have currently presented Zero evidence about the matter. To this hour, I have merely asked you a SERIOUS question about your treatise: "Where's your single thread of evidence that Biden at all supported genocide or any other method Netanahu used in his attempt to kill as many Palestinians as possible?"
ragnarhairybreek 07-Feb-25, 10:02	Mo I am puzzled. You seem to acknowledge the genocidal intent of Israel's attack on Gaza when you refer to Netanyahu's attempt to kill as many Palestinians as possible. Biden gave him the bombs and the bullets to do it, in full knowledge of Netanyahu's actions and intentions. I really don't see how you can avoid construing this as support. Even if Biden had protested the massacres and destruction - and I am not aware that he ever did - he continued to supply the arms Israel used to commit mass murder. Do you not think that makes him culpable? What I have said is not a conspiracy theory it is a reasonable interpretation of publicly available facts. So reasonable it seems to me to be stating the obvious. Your refusal to acknowledge Biden's role in this is, to me, bizarre.
mo-oneandmore 07-Feb-25, 10:17	Rag I fully understand your puzzlement, because you are apparently unable to see through the wool of the lies that people have convinced you about. And: You have yet to do anything other argue the lie about "Biden supporting Netanahu's Genocide with any supportive evidence other than the truth that ALL other presidents since WW 2 have supplied massive amounts if weapons to Israel.
ragnarhairybreek 07-Feb-25, 11:00	Mo You just attributed to me a statement that I never made - viz. that " ALL other presidents since WW 2 have supplied massive amounts if weapons to Israel." I never denied this or even said a damn thing about it. It is completely immaterial. You seem to be arguing against things you imagine I might think, not what I actually said. So, to be clear: I was making an argument about the culpability of one particular President for one particular genocidal military campaign. Instead of arguing your point of view (whatever that is - I can't quite work it out, actually) you resort to insults, implying I am stupid and a conspiracy theorist. I'm disappointed by the extremely low level of this so called argument. I have told you what I think and why. You have yet to say anything meaningful about it.
mo-oneandmore 07-Feb-25, 11:21	Ragnar I apologize. In my rush, I fully miss stated my intent --- I did not intend to claim that you said that. My intent was show you that Biden supplied weapons to Israel exactly like presidents have been supplying Israel for 100 years and that support of Israel's sovereignty and/or support of Israel's right to fight terrorism against it has nothing to do with your statement that Biden also supports the genocide that Netanahu and his alt-right followers have been committing against the largely innocent people of Gaza. In deed. I agree with your Premise that Netanahu has been committing genocide, but I strongly disagree that Biden supports it. Finally. If you wish to continue arguing your comment about Biden, you risk being removed from THINK Club
ragnarhairybreek 07-Feb-25, 11:32	Mo Thank you. I accept the apology and I am glad to get a clarification of your views. I think we have both said our piece at this point. Peace.
lord_shiva 07-Feb-25, 14:42	Ragnar 7:34 << You cannot blame Arab Americans for refusing to vote for Harris. She promised to continue Biden's policy of supporting a genocide. It's their cousins, uncles, neices being murdered en masse with American bombs. I doubt you would have voted for her in their shoes either.>> I absolutely would have voted for her, as Groper’s policy was ethnic cleansing, and he had illegal West Bank settlements named in his honor during his first term. Harris may not have endorsed two state, despite publicly endorsing the two state, but she would NOT have terminated the meager assistance provided by USAID, as Groper has, nor indicated US occupation was in the cards. I never vote on a single issue. For me, would Kamala likely overthrow the US government to preserve power? No. Would her opponent? Clearly yes. Easy decision—I vote for upholding the constitution. Even if I were Muslim. For Christians the order runs God, family, country. I don’t know how Muslims rank priorities, but Groper promised only death and destruction. The idiot tried to ban Muslims his first term, at which he was only partially successful. So how is that better than Harris NOT banning Muslims or giving the Israel war criminal all the arms he wanted? Biden at least slowed the flow. Groper wouldn’t.
lord_shiva 07-Feb-25, 14:47	Trump Heights on Golan Heights You think I was kidding? en.wikipedia.org I have been to the West Bank. Gotta run.
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