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stalhandske 08-Nov-20, 02:16	To Cross Borders Ptitroque wrote: <So that there are 2 points to be discussed : Who and what is legitimate to cross the border - at which conditions (taxes...) ? How do we do to ensure that the rule is applied ? For a rule which is not applied being pointless.> This is a very important discussion, and this thread is started for this purpose.
stalhandske 08-Nov-20, 02:20	First of all it is crucial to distinguish between two fundamentally different reasons for border crossing: Refugees from places where they cannot live (for various serious reasons), and Ordinary Immigrants. Of course, there are subgroups, too, but the Rules and Laws should be different for these two. One key problem is hence always how to distinguish between the two, especially since immigration restrictions are less restrictive in the former group, so that cheating in the immigrant's records is sometimes done.
stalhandske 08-Nov-20, 02:23	Ptitroque posted earlier: ... have several purposes. The fundamental one is to delimit a space where rules will apply. There is no country without borders. Now a border can be open, closed or in between (closed for some people or some goods). It depends on the political, social and economical context - the US borders have been wide opened to migrants during the 19th century. If they are closed, at least partly (which is legitimate), one has to guard them, to ensure that the rule is respected. Building fortifications like a wall, towers and the like is a mean to guard the border and is a strong symbol. It has been used in history by the Romans, the Chinese... It's expensive and the efficiency is doubtful. In practice, it's efficient if its guarded, which is often the problem, for guarding a wall is expensive as well.
riaannieman 08-Nov-20, 02:26	Borders and walls ptitroque, 08-Nov-20, 02:10: Thank you! Yes you are exactly right. And to expand on that, about "fortifications like a wall, towers and the like"- I want to say that Mr Trump is not the only person who has built walls in modern times. There are several other walls in existence, and all for exactly the same reason is the wall of Mr Trump. Here is a list of fourteen modern walls: www.washingtonpost.com Please note that Israel is not the only country who put up a wall at the Gaza strip!
ptitroque 08-Nov-20, 03:40	Border crossing A country can have several reasons to forbid the entrance to such or such category of people. Those reasons can be classified into 2 types : 1. Security : because one fears that enemies enter (debate in the moment in France about terrorism : how can we prevent them to enter in the country ?) 2. Economy : because the country doesn't need more people to develop (lack of space, of food, of work...) - the newcomers will be a charge. 3. Cultural : we fear that the newcomers might impose their culture if they are numerous enough Reasons to let people cross the border : 1. Economical : sometimes, we need people to develop your country : Do we accept only the people we need (qualification, age) - tourism can enter in the economical category. 2. Humanitarian : the country considers that it's its duty to accept people who are in trouble (for political or economical reasons). If we do not want to accept all the people who pretend to be in trouble, we have to determine which reasons are good and which are bad. Now a policy is, by definition, subjective and depends on the respective importance that you give to such or such reasons, therefore, it's a question of morale and ideology.
stalhandske 08-Nov-20, 03:53	Ptit I think we should make a fundamental distinction between what you call Economical and Humanitarian. In the Humanitarian case, I would call them Refugees. Then, in my opinion, purely economical reasons aren't sufficient. What is required is evidence of persecution and danger to lose one's life.
ptitroque 08-Nov-20, 04:23	Stal OK, let's discuss this point : "What is required is evidence of persecution and danger to lose one's life." I disagree with the above sentence which is not precise enough. 1. evidence of persecusion cannot be reduced in danger for your own life : if you are a slave or bound to concentration camp, it should be enough - what about being prohibited to follow its own religion ? If your children are not allowed to go to school because of your political opinion or your race, is it enough ? If you're victim of segregation, is it enough ? 2. you can be in danger to lose your life or your children if you're starving, if your house has been bombed, even if you haven't been personnaly prosecuted.
riaannieman 08-Nov-20, 04:28	I think that borders should be a thing of the past. In the modern world, we communicate ideas at the speed of light across borders. Ideas are more dangerous than arms and weapons. We move money around the globe instantaneously- we don't need to carry cash across borders. Following some threads in this club, I see that most of us are of opinions that are like enough to each other that we cannot distinguish the minor differences (in the greater picture). As a police officer it is my experience that borders do very little to halt criminality. I see the syndicates who smuggle humans, indulge in human trafficking, bring firearms, drugs and cigarettes across borders daily. Border control at specific points are almost useless. There are thousands and thousands of kilometers of borders between countries that are (most of the time) not monitored, controlled or effectively managed at all. I point to the stretches of border between Canada and the USA- a simple ditch running next to the road! Between Namibia and Botswana- a desert park, patrolled by a few lions, ostriches and oryx. Spain and Marocco? A stretch of sea that can be rowed with a kayak and a bit of luck. Russian and China- do you know how long that border is! Thousands of miles- I am convinced I can get across if challenged. What about Chile with Bolivia and Argentina? Plenty of opportunity...... I think a better solution to borders will be the replacement of the current political systems and models we have in place. I have mentioned it in the past, and also qualified it: I think all political systems and models we have now is outdated and obsolete. However, I don't know what the replacement model should be, but I think a generation or three from now we will see the end of career politicians and rather the emergence of administrators and custodians, who directly effect the will of the general population. I think that the younger generations, with their expectations of immediate gratification, is going to replace what we know. I can only speculate on the form that this is going to take, but I envision some kind of public platform in which the young generation express their views and opinions, and immediately get results, change or other options. Something like Facebook that quickly condemns a person for some action or thoughts, and immediately changes common perception and opinion.
stalhandske 08-Nov-20, 04:58	Riaan Thanks for a very thoughtful post! <I think a better solution to borders will be the replacement of the current political systems and models we have in place.> I am less sure about that, but what I have as a reference point is the current political system in the Nordic countries. One of the reasons borders cannot just be removed is due to those social systems. In the Nordic countries all members of society are covered by social security, free health care and free education. If we were to "import" a huge number of people here who would/could not contribute to the economy (in a positive way), the system would pretty soon collapse. Sure, we have quite some leeway, and we do take people for humanitarian reasons, but there are practical limits.
riaannieman 08-Nov-20, 05:08	I think that after some initial movement, most people will stay close to home because that is what humans do. Some of us may wander a bit, but most of us do not have the wanderlust, the courage, to change things drastically. Besides, if we all have an agreeable system with instant results in place, why move away from our roots, what we know, our opportunities? As for humanitarian reasons, we cross borders for that right now! I know of several South African children who has gone to France, Netherlands, USA, Israel, India and other countries for medical treatment that cannot be obtained here. The only problem they face is passports, visas and the exchange rate. Our military crossed into the sovereign country of Mozambique a few years ago after a massive cyclone hit our neighbor to the north- they provided much needed help of all sorts.
stalhandske 08-Nov-20, 05:18	Riaan <I think that after some initial movement, most people will stay close to home because that is what humans do. Some of us may wander a bit, but most of us do not have the wanderlust, the courage, to change things drastically. Besides, if we all have an agreeable system with instant results in place, why move away from our roots, what we know, our opportunities?> Very good points. But not really applicable to the situation in recent times in Iraq, Syria, and certain parts of Subsaharan Africa. The number of refugees that have - in practice - been forced out of these countries is huge. And many (most) of them have tried to escape to Europe. Italy has taken a huge load because of its location, but Turkey also has very large refugee camps where conditions are awful.
riaannieman 08-Nov-20, 05:32	Sir, that is my argument: if the people that has been displaced during the Arab Spring could change the course of events, by eliminating the politicians and letting administrators/caretakers/custodians know what they wanted, they never would have been displaced in the first place! The dictators that caused the uprisings would not have been in those positions and the terrible abuses, which we know so well, would never have happened. I think if one would ask any of those refugees, they would gladly return home, if it was safe, secure, without violence and abuse, and where everything is familiar.
stalhandske 08-Nov-20, 05:36	Riaan Yes, my Friend, I think we agree completely. This is why the Western European countries should invest in helping these countries to help themselves in order to become democracies! This is difficult, and sending money is NOT the way! It requires a lot more study and planning, but would certainly be worth the while. But that is something that takes time. Meanwhile, people must be supported and helped.
mo-oneandmore 08-Nov-20, 05:45	When border doors are closed, more undocumented/unrecorded immigrants climb the walls --- that appears to be the result of trump's southern border polices. Southwest border Illegal immigrant apprehensions. (does not include those who escaped the border patrol) 2015: 331383 2016: 408,870 2017: 303,906 2018: 396,579 2019: 851,508 It's possible that 2020 will be over a million now that all the Latinos know that the wall can be easily breached with a battery powered, $100.00 saws all.
riaannieman 08-Nov-20, 05:52	And that is why it walls are not effective any more. I think one should put more resources in solving the underlying reasons for the migration of illegal immigrants instead of trying to police the borders. As stalhandske said above, throwing money at the problem is not the solution. Zimbabweans stream to South Africa by the thousands every day. They bring along very violent crime- any armed robbers arrested are more than likely to be Zimbabweans. They bring their own AK47 or AKM assault rifles. The reason? They don't have jobs, they don't have food, and there is no way to get either in Zimbabwe. The solution? Infrastructure. They need industry, farms and other opportunities. Just dumping food and giving money does not help at all. The food gets hijacked by corrupt politicians and sold on the black market; the money disappears never to be seen again. Solving the problems they face may cost a lot in the short term. Policing borders and erecting walls will cost a lot more in the long term.
mo-oneandmore 08-Nov-20, 06:31	riaan <<<I think one should put more resources in solving the underlying reasons for the migration of illegal immigrants>>> I agree ---- it's called solving hunger and pain, and finding ways to provide hope for life and freedom in some of the countries these immigrants are coming from. Easy enough, huh?
stalhandske 08-Nov-20, 07:01	<Easy enough, huh? > That summarises the problem very clearly! It is NOT easy, and definitely not possible by just shoving money to the developing country. It requires careful planning and research, and if done it that way such help to developing countries can actually boost business in the helping country as well!
lord_shiva 08-Nov-20, 08:47	Trump Wall The Trump Make America Great Wall just needs to be bigger. I like the black, that is ominous. But it needs gold glitter. Everything is better with gold. Toilets. Thrones. Walls. And the wall is too narrow. It should be wide enough to sport chariot races. A thin little wall can be defeated by a Sawsall. This wall should be 1/2" thick Hardox plate. Masonry in the middle, with a hollow space to place crypts for the bones of construction workers. There should be a Trump flag every twenty feet. A big one you can see flapping in the breeze from twenty miles away. Sentries should be stationed every Roman mile, just like Hadrian's Wall. Any Dmocrat sentenced for vagrancy should be required to serve five years of wall duty, dining on beans and tequila, and the occaisional fried snake or lizard. MAGA!
lord_shiva 08-Nov-20, 08:50	AK47 I know these are kind of cheap, but how do Zimbabweans afford them? That still has to be two months salary.
lord_shiva 08-Nov-20, 08:57	Transparency I forgot--the reason for the slots in the wall is so American tourists visiting the Trump National America Greatest Wall can dodge bags of cocaine and heroine flung over it by Mexican drug lords. Everyone knows Mexican drugs are typically tossed over the border wall, beaning hapless tourists every year. We want our tourist attractions drug free, and if we can't have that we need sensible slats so quick footed tourists can dodge the barrage of kilos continuously raining over the wall like Niagra Falls on crack. North of the wall is a winter wonderland, buried deep in poppy snow.
riaannieman 08-Nov-20, 09:57	lord_shiva, 08-Nov-20, 08:50: When I did field work from my home town of Vryheid in the province KwaZulu/Natal, we had an informant (I think you call it a CI) who regularly got us an AK47 or AKM with two magazines fully loaded for a bottle of nasty, cheap whiskey. The kind that burns the enamel off your teeth. This is the left overs, the legacy, of plenty of African freedom struggles. We use to pay our informant with food, because he was across the border on Mozambique. For a sheep, a 10 kilogram bag of potatoes , 25 kilograms of rice, 25 kilograms of maize meal, a bag with 10 cabbages and some other vegetables and dried/canned food, we got 30 AK 47's and AKM's with ammunition. He couldn't use South African currency in Mozambique. Food was a much better currency. These Russian and Chinese (and Czech) made assault rifles are common in Africa, and many (most?) African government forces are issued with these arms. If you factor in corruption and greed, it is easy to see where they come from and how they are prolific on this continent. They are low maintenance, ammunition is cheap, they are easy to use, and accurate enough. As for how any Zimbabwean can afford an AK: there is an urban legend, which must have its truth out there somewhere. A Zimbabwean woman went to the shop to buy bread. She had Zim$ 10 000 000-00 in a wheelbarrow for the bread. At the bakery or grocery store, she left the wheelbarrow and money on the sidewalk and went inside to see if they actually had bread in stock. When she came out, all the money had been dumped out of the wheelbarrow, and the pile of money was on the pavement. The wheelbarrow was missing.......... This should illustrate how little people have and what they would do for money. You can now understand where the weapons come from; weapons are cheaper than food, and worth more as barter than as instruments of death or resources to complete a mandate.
bobspringett 08-Nov-20, 15:28	Not money needed, but infrastructure? Riaan says <The solution? Infrastructure. They need industry, farms and other opportunities. Just dumping food and giving money does not help at all. The food gets hijacked by corrupt politicians and sold on the black market; the money disappears never to be seen again.> That is certainly better than money or commodities, but even helping by building infrastructure is very easily subverted. I know of church charities that were operating in the Philippines during the Marcos era. They refused to pay bribes, so the officials told them where they would be permitted to build roads so farmers could transport to markets more easily and cheaply. They were instructed in which villages would be permitted to sink wells for drinking water, etc. As soon as they did so, the landlords in those areas put up their rents. The villagers remained on subsistence or worse, the landlords won more rent, and the officials took bribes from the landlords rather than the charity. Let's face the truth here! The problem is not economic, nor productive, but political. So long as there is a class that has the power to skim wealth, then wealth will be skimmed. I have heard it very cogently argued that what most of the third world needs is not economic aid, but political aid. Strangely, the current ruling classes in most of these societies tend to disagree. They seem quite happy with things as they are. I have even heard calls for a return to 'Benevolent Neo-colonialism'. But that won't work, either. In practical terms, the most likely way out is either revolution or military authoritarianism, which merely replaces one ruling class with another. It's unfortunate, and an incredibly difficult problem to solve. If it were easy, it would have been solved by now. Rejoice and be glad, all nations which enjoy the rule of 'Equal before the Law' within a culture that respects the dignity of each citizen! That is well worth any sacrifice to maintain. Don't be seduced by charismatic demagogues who wink at abuses by those in authority under them, because it indicates that these demagogues at the top of the pile will also commit their own abuses in turn.
lord_shiva 08-Nov-20, 19:19	Corruption We have had corrupt people in this country too. In high school I wrote a paper on Boss Tweed of the Tamany Hall political machine. He was corrupt. New York guy. Spiritual leader of Trump in many respects. Overweight, fingers in many pies, kickbacks and corruption of all kinds. But I think most of the people who go into politics start out honest. It is the lobbying and the money influence that weakens people. "We'll pay you to scratch our back." You have to dance with those who brought you. Campaign donors expect something in return for their financial support. And with Trump the campaign donations he considered his--just as he considers Maralago memberships. Most country clubs place membership fees into a sustaining fund. Trump doesn't--he pockets that money. www.miamiherald.com Trump makes a big deal out of donating his salary, and I really have no issue with that. It is his money, earned promoting his personal businesses or golfing--I don't care. He is the president he can do whatever he wants to with his paycheck. But don't fool yourself for a single second. As president he makes $400,000 a year, right? He makes more than that with a single tony. And he unquestioningly attracted far more members to his clubs seeking access to the US president than he could earn as president if he remained in office for the next hundred years.
riaannieman 09-Nov-20, 00:45	bobspringett, 08-Nov-20, 15:28: Your description of the political problem in less developed coutnries is accurate, I think, and therefore my argument that all political models and systems as we know it should be replaced. As lord_shiva says the political leaders probably start out straight and honest, but they never seem to stay that way. Replacing politicians with people who administer the popular will of citizens can solve the problem. As some of the young generation say to me sometimes: we want this or that to happen. Why can't it? The politicians are blocking it for reasons unknown. Let us circumvent the politicians and get it done! We all want this, we all agree that it is right and must happen. Politics are holding us back. Most recently the example I will use was a piece of road where people speed, which runs along the back of a school. It is a fast arterial road to a nearby highway and carries a lot of rush hour traffic. Several pupils walking to school were involved in hit-and-run accidents, some of whom died. The parents, teachers and pupils asked for speed humps to slow and calm traffic- 7 years later the speed humps have still not been installed. The local political representatives always have a problem why it can't be done. This is clearly a small matter, which cannot be very expensive. Why has it not been done in 7 years? The answer must be that the politicians are keeping the people at ransom for votes in the next elections, have not been bribed (yet) or that they are totally apathetic to the plight of the people they are supposed to represent. If you have a caretaker, somebody who has not been appointed with a political agenda in mind, have no political affiliations, and who can be replaced if he/she doesn't deliver, I am 100% sure this problem would have been solved long ago.
ace-of-aces 09-Nov-20, 05:29	What should Biden do to Trump's wall at the southern border ? youtu.be The border between US and Mexico is nearly 2000 miles long. From Trump's perspective, illegal border crossing from south of the border into US is a national security threat. He believes murderers, rapists, drug traffickers and all sorts of criminals will crossover into US and harm the US citizens. Trump completed the construction of 400 miles of border wall. Moreover, the illegals will compete with Americans and take away their jobs. US has half a million homeless people who live on the streets. I am sure because of cv pandemic, there are millions of more jobless people nowadays and will become homeless. Trump is a great savior and beacon of hope just like statue of Liberty for Americans. Now, the American dreams and hopes are gone when Biden replaces Trump. Democrats see the illegals differently. They believe that the more illegals you have, the more you can build a socialist utopia and US will become the greatest nation on earth greater than Trump's MAGA. Don't forget that America is the land of migrants including native Indians who were Asians that crossed over the frozen land bridge of ice between Alaska and Siberia and settled down here thousands of years before Christopher Columbus discovered America. Don't forget that most of the initial settlers were poor, down trodden and were persecuted in their native countries. Some were criminals or mentally ill people who were not wanted in their own countries. UK even established penal colonies in US and Australia so that the two vast countries could be colonized and filled with English speaking citizens even if they sere criminals. According to, " History repeats itself " Democrats are now theorizing that if America could be built on unrestricted immigration with poor people in the past, they can now do the same thing again with out any problems. Democrats can now replace Trump's selfish " America First theory" with Biden's, One for all and all for one, globalist theory.
stalhandske 09-Nov-20, 06:57	Ace <Democrats see the illegals differently. They believe that the more illegals you have, the more you can build a socialist utopia and US will become the greatest nation on earth greater than Trump's MAGA.> Ace, now SERIOUSLY, when will you stop posting such utter bullshit? I don't know if the quote above originates from your clip or from your mouth, but any sane person will know that this is not how Democrats "see illegals". Ace: I am seriously, yet kindly, warning you. Please STOP posting stuff that is simply untrue! I don't want this Club to decline to the level of some others.
ptitroque 09-Nov-20, 13:35	illegal migrants are a problem, indeed. Some end as sex slaves. Others "integrate" very well (when they already have relatives in the country). They work (often being exploited), have children in their "host country". Some should be legalized. In any case, they should be treated with humanity.
thumper 09-Nov-20, 14:18	Deleted by thumper on 09-Nov-20, 14:19.
thumper 09-Nov-20, 14:19	How many illegal migrant workers do you even know?
mo-oneandmore 09-Nov-20, 14:48	I've worked among at least 20 Illegal immigrants and they were all hard workers, and they generally appreciated the opportunity to work notably more than the Americans who were around them.
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