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Misconceptions of Atheists
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coram_deo 23-Sep-21, 10:54 |
 (Matthew 19:24) This is a verse that’s often misunderstood by atheists. But before I say what I believe Jesus Christ truly means in this verse, it’s interesting to note that atheists who believe the Holy Bible is filled with symbolism and allegory often want to take a verse literally when it suits their purpose of heaping condemnation and guilt upon God’s children. Anyone who’s been rich knows how easy it is to place their security and their trust in their money and not in God. They grow to depend on money and not to be dependent upon God. I think this is the principle Jesus is referring to in that verse from Matthew. It’s very easy for rich people to abandon God - to abandon prayer and Bible reading, to abandon worshipping God - because they think they don’t need Him. For rich people, money becomes their god and they can never have enough. This was perfectly illustrated for me when I ran into a woman I used to date after we hadn’t seen each other in around 10 years. We agreed to meet for lunch at a diner and she insisted on paying the bill because she had invited me and there was no talking her out of it (and believe me, I tried, because I don’t like being in the position where I feel I owe someone something - I like to give out of gratitude to God and not obligation to man.) So she pays for the bill and it was fairly significant because I had planned on paying and so ordered what I wanted. Now this woman had recently inherited a great deal of money after her mother passed (she mentioned this during the course of our lunch.) She paid cash and told our waitress to keep the change. Well, I found out before leaving that she meant “keep the change” literally because change is what she left for the tip - literally less than a dollar. If I had to guess, I’d say she tipped 1 percent of the bill - if that! She wasn’t like that 10 years ago, and I think it was money that changed her. Money isn’t evil, but love of money is. That’s why Jesus said a person cannot serve both God and money. “No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.” (Matthew 6:24) We see throughout the Scriptures how God is concerned with our hearts. Because it’s from our hearts that thoughts and actions flow. If we have a heart that loves money and material possessions, we will become miserly. If we have a heart that loves God and is grateful to God, we will want to be a blessing to others. Despite what atheists have claimed, I’m not a Bible literalist or fundamentalist - I don’t believe every word and verse in the Holy Bible should be taken literally. For example, consider these verses from the Gospel of Matthew: “And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.” (Matthew 5:29-30) Does anyone think these verses should be taken literally? I think Jesus is illustrating in these verses how serious sin is. Just as I think Jesus is saying in Matthew 19:24 how easily money and riches can corrupt people and lead them away from God. |
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coram_deo 23-Sep-21, 11:18 |
Why? Because Jeff Bezos, Warren Buffet et al aren’t leading people to God, and if there’s one thing atheists hate, it’s a person finding salvation, blessings and joy in Jesus Christ. So the atheist will criticize pastors who have money but not rich businessmen, investors or politicians, but they’ll also criticize pastors who don’t have money by saying, “Well, I guess God doesn’t love him or approve of his message. Look how poor he is!” For the atheist, it’s all about accusations and hate in the service of keeping people from God and, in the case of believers, attempting to damage or destroy a believer’s relationship with God. If someone is truly an atheist, he or she wouldn’t give a second thought to what believers say and do. If someone told me they believed a tree in their yard was god, I wouldn’t argue with them. I wouldn’t feel the need to constantly push back on that belief and try to convince that person the tree really isn’t god. I think most atheists actually believe God exists, but they hate Him. They suffered some terrible wrong or tragedy and they blame God for it. And their way of getting back at God is to blaspheme Him and try to keep as many people from Him as possible. The sad thing is, the “atheist” (God hater) could find genuine peace and joy in God through Jesus Christ and could become a new creation in Christ and have a home in Heaven when they pass. But they don’t want it. And like crabs in a bucket, they’ll try to prevent anyone from getting that too. It’s so sad, |
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coram_deo 23-Sep-21, 12:21 |
But first, I’ll quote the passage in the Holy Bible on which the commentary is based. Here is that passage: “And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.” (Matthew 19:16-24) And here’s the commentary quoted by the atheist: <<“And that’s what I think Jesus’ point is. When Jesus responds to him by saying “go sell all that you have,” Jesus is challenging him. Jesus is pressing further to make him see that he is not, in fact, a law keeper. Jesus is essentially saying to him: “OK, you don’t get it. So I’m going to show you that you aren’t a law keeper by challenging you on this point.” So he challenges him with the first and tenth commandments — to have no other gods and not to be covetous — by saying “go, sell all that you have.” And when the rich young ruler becomes sad at this, it shows that, like the tax collector, he is not a lawkeeper after all — he has broken the tenth commandment and first commandment by preferring money over God. (And by breaking these commandments, he has broken them all — for the tenth commandment is a restatement of the first, and the first commandment is the essence of all of them.)” Good stuff.>> The “Good stuff” wasn’t part of the commentary but was the atheist’s endorsement of it. And I endorse it too! But probably not for the same reason as the atheist. What the commentary illustrates, imo, is that no one can keep the Law - at least not to God’s standard of perfection. And those who want to be justified and gain salvation by Law keeping have to keep all of the Law and keep all of it perfectly. No one (except Jesus Christ Himself) can do that! So if no one can be justified before God and gain salvation by Law keeping, what hope does anyone have? The hope is in accepting and believing in Jesus Christ and His Resurrection because He, and He alone, is our salvation. “Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.” (Acts 4:12) What the passage about the rich young ruler illustrates is that even people who claim to be keeping the Law aren’t doing it - because no one can do it! Why didn’t Jesus tell the rich young ruler that salvation was found in Him? I think He wanted to show the rich young ruler that he wasn’t keeping the Law - that he himself couldn’t do anything to gain eternal life. Also, the rich young ruler asked in the context of the Law (what must *I* do) and so Jesus replied in the context of the Law and demonstrated to the rich young ruler that he wasn’t keeping the Law despite his claim that he was. Elsewhere in the Gospels, Jesus talks about what our Heavenly Father desires (and requires) of us: “Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” (John 6:29) And in case anyone missed it, Jesus repeats the same statement later in John 6: “And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.” (John 6:40) To sum up are these verses: “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;” (Romans 3:23) “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” (Romans 6:23) |
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coram_deo 23-Sep-21, 14:36 |
All who believed were together and had all things in common; 45 they would sell all their possessions and goods and distribute the proceeds to all, as any had need.....Now the whole group of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one claimed private ownership of any possessions, but everything they owned was held in common.....There was not a needy person among them, for as many as owned lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold. They laid it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to each as any had need. -- Acts 2:44-45, Acts 4: 32-35 Just one of many such similar texts taken from the Bible - hardly surprising that the rich churches of the World don't want their followers reading it in it's entirety.>> And where is the insanely wealthy and corrupt ruling class in that passage from the Holy Bible? There’s certainly nothing wrong with sharing resources, but note very important differences between the above passage in the Bible and communist governments as they exist today and have existed for centuries: 1) The apostles participated in the sharing of resources. The rulers in communist governments don’t. 2) The sharing of resources in the Bible passage was voluntary. Such is not the case in communism. 3) The apostles were believers in God. Rulers in communist governments are typically atheists because they want allegiance to only be to the communist government. And stamping out religion through persecution is typically one of the first things a communist government will do. 4) Because they believed in and were led by God, the apostles could be counted on to do the right thing. Sadly, we see in history what has happened when atheists are given unlimited power via communism - the murder of literally hundreds of millions of people. To sum up, The apostles led by example, participation in resource sharing was voluntary and the apostles were led by and relied upon God. And they knew they were accountable to God. Communists exempt themselves from rules and burdens they place on others and do not participate in resource sharing. In communism, resource sharing is mandatory and communists think they are accountable to no one. |
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coram_deo 23-Sep-21, 14:46 |
Jesus was a socialist. It’s seems pretty obvious. He was, at least, anticapitalist.>> Jesus Christ called on His followers to give money to the poor, to directly help the poor. He did not call on the Roman government to increase taxes on its citizens and then redistribute the money to the poor (after the government took a large cut of it, of course.) It’s been said (can’t remember by whom) that capitalism cannot exist without morality, and that’s absolutely true. Just compare the pay of CEOs to the pay of their workers today vs. 50 years ago. Has America become more or less religious over the last 50 years? What you’re seeing in capitalism today is more the fault of atheism than capitalism. Capitalism works when the citizenry of that system is largely comprised of believers. But when selfish and self-centered atheists are involved to a large degree, particularly at the top, capitalism is doomed to fail. |
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coram_deo 24-Sep-21, 05:24 |
From the Washington Post: While it is hardly any comfort to their victims, the two people most associated with mass deaths in this bloodiest of human centuries -- Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin -- were likely surpassed by a third, China's Mao Zedong. Mao launched more than a dozen campaigns during his rule, which began when he founded Communist China in 1949 and ended with his death in 1976. Some are well known while others, such as a bloody campaign to "purify class ranks" in the late 1960s, which involved army units, have received little publicity. While most scholars are reluctant to estimate a total number of "unnatural deaths" in China under Mao, evidence shows he was in some way responsible for at least 40 million deaths and perhaps 80 million or more. This includes deaths he was directly responsible for and deaths resulting from disastrous policies he refused to change. One government document that has been internally circulated and seen by a former Communist Party official now at Princeton University says that 80 million died unnatural deaths -- most of them in the famine following the Great Leap Forward. This figure comes from the Tigaisuo, or the System Reform Institute, which was led by Zhao Ziyang, the deposed Communist Party chief, in the 1980s to study how to reform Chinese society. In comparison, Hitler is blamed for 12 million concentration camp deaths and at least 30 million other deaths associated with World War II, while Stalin is believed responsible for between 30 million and 40 million "unnatural deaths," including millions from a famine he created. More at: www.washingtonpost.com |
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coram_deo 24-Sep-21, 11:51 |
I condemn that behavior as well, but that’s not what Pastor Prince does. The atheists are simply trying to smear Pastor Prince by citing abhorrent behavior of other pastors. Many of Pastor Prince’s resources are free through his ministry’s app and through YouTube. I have purchased several CDs and books from Pastor Prince’s ministry over the last few years and they are well worth the value. The books “100 Days of Right Believing” and “Destined to Reign” are particularly valuable imo, as is the first CD I bought which is entitled "Redefined: Discover Your Identity through Jesus' Eyes.” Pastor Prince preaches the true (Grace-based!) Gospel of Jesus Christ, which is why he comes under attack. There’s nothing Satan and atheists want more than believers thinking they have to continually earn God’s approval because the believers will feel like they continually fall short and will grow to resent God and thereby spend less and less time in fellowship with Him until they abandon God all together. Trust me when I tell you - most atheists are not people who don’t believe in God; they’re people who hate God. I think many suffered some terrible wrong or tragedy and they blame God for it. And their way of getting back at God is to blaspheme Him and try to keep as many people as they can from Him, including believers. I’ve said before that if a guy on here believed a tree in his yard was god, I wouldn’t waste time arguing with him. I may occasionally read what he wrote for entertainment purposes but I certainly wouldn’t try to refute him. Atheists think belief in God is ridiculous. So why do they spend so much of their time trying to refute that belief? Because they believe God exists, but they hate Him. |
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coram_deo 25-Sep-21, 13:18 |
<<Just don't send any money those son of a sewer preachers that you started this thread about, huh? That might damn sure be a sin!>> If you’re including Pastor Joseph Prince in that comment, you’re dead wrong. Pastor Prince hasn’t claimed Jesus Christ’s return is delayed because not enough donations have come in, nor has he offered to exchange blessings for donations. The atheist who started the thread entitled “Joseph Prince Ministries” apparently couldn’t find dirt on Pastor Prince and so tried to smear him with the bad behavior of other pastors. Like every church, pastors at Joseph Prince’s New Creation Church ask for tithes and offerings before a church service. That’s common practice at every church. And his church has a lot of money because his church has a lot of followers. But a lot of that money is put back into His ministry. And many of Pastor Prince’s teachings are free (daily Devotionals, messages, videos on YouTube and weekly online church services, etc.) |
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coram_deo 29-Sep-21, 20:42 |
Here is the comment from the believer: <<Humans put far too much weight and attention on a very illusionary made up idea called Race or color. What difference does it make?>> I wholeheartedly agree! Why atheists seem obsessed with the color of people’s skin and ethnicity is mind boggling. Who cares?! Remember Martin Luther King, Jr., in his famous “I Have a Dream” speech, said he longed for the day when people would be judged by the content of their character and not the color of their skin. And we have another atheist, a founder of a club on here and a scientist no less, who compares human beings with whom he disagrees to an animal and a bug! This is outrageous and sick! Believe me, most atheists are, at their core, sick and evil people. Let me repeat that: Most atheists, at their core, are sick and evil people. Take that statement to the bank (American saying.) I don’t care if you disagree with someone. That’s fine. But to say they’re an animal and a bug?! That’s like Nazi Germany - dehumanizing human beings to justify murdering them. Sick and evil. |
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coram_deo 29-Sep-21, 21:34 |
These atheist morons have the idea that if all the believers, all those who believe in God, would just disappear from the face of the earth, all those who remain would create paradise on earth. It’s so ridiculous! But go ahead: Try to recreate the Garden of Eden. Good luck with that! |
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coram_deo 10-Oct-21, 12:07 |
Even Jesus Christ, when He was on His way to the cross, understood God the Father’s will was perfectly holy and trustworthy. “And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed, Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.” (Luke 22:41-42) We also see the Lord’s Prayer, as recorded in the Gospel of Matthew and Gospel of Luke, includes these verses: “Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.” (Matthew 6:10) “And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.” (Luke 11:2) I think these verses, in which Jesus Christ, tells believers to pray for God’s will to be done demonstrates (at least) three things: * God is far wiser than us. * God is completely holy and only wants the best for us. * God is fully trustworthy and is completely for us. The Apostle John, in his first letter, assures believers that their prayers are not in vain: “And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.” (1 John 5:14-15) The Apostle Peter, in his first letter, advises believers to cast *all* their cares upon God: “Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time: Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.” (1 Peter 5:6-7) And Jesus Christ advises, through a Parable, that believers be persistent in prayer. “And he said unto them, Which of you shall have a friend, and shall go unto him at midnight, and say unto him, Friend, lend me three loaves; For a friend of mine in his journey is come to me, and I have nothing to set before him? And he from within shall answer and say, Trouble me not: the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed; I cannot rise and give thee. I say unto you, Though he will not rise and give him, because he is his friend, yet because of his importunity he will rise and give him as many as he needeth.” (Luke 11:5-8) And James, the brother of Jesus, says believers should pray for wisdom and pray with faith that God hears them and will do what’s best: “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.” (James 1:5-8) The author of Hebrews, who is commonly believed to be the Apostle Paul, advises believers to come boldly before God in prayer, realizing that Jesus Christ has made them righteous before God the Father: “Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.” (Hebrews 4:14-16) So rather than the atheists’ view that God exists to do what we want - and when we want it - a believer realizes God’s wisdom and goodness is infinitely superior to our own and that what we ask - and when we want it - may not be best for us. The atheists’ misconception of God as lower in stature and goodness than man (so absurd) was recently revealed by a poster in the forum who blasphemed God and then said (paraphrased,) “If God exists, may he strike me dead. Oh he didn’t? I guess he doesn’t exist.” This comment from the atheist shows a few things (beyond his immaturity.) * God is expected to do what the atheist wants - and do it immediately. * God is so petty that He would kill someone for blaspheming Him - meaning atheists, who presumably wouldn’t kill someone for insulting them, are more holy and just than God. The atheist’s view of God is often based on the Old Testament - it’s what they always retreat to - and they criticize God’s actions toward man in the different books of the Old Testament, particularly the flood in Genesis. But the atheists only look at one side of the equation and never bring up how evil man was at the time - so evil they sacrificed children to false gods. When that’s pointed out to the atheist, the atheist often says something like, “Well, God made us. I guess He didn’t do a very good job!” not realizing our acknowledging that God gave man free will - to choose good or choose evil. The basic problem atheists have is self-righteousness and foolish pride - believing they (and mankind in general) are above God. Lucifer had the same problem, which tells me where that pride and hatred of God comes from. |
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coram_deo 24-Oct-21, 13:01 |
Me too, though we undoubtedly disagree on Him being both fully God and fully man. <<I have devout Catholic friends who reject the doctrine of the trinity. There are probably even priests who do.>> Then they’re not Christians. “Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.” (1 John 2:22-23) <<While there are no contemporary accounts of Christ outside the gospels,>> This is false if you meant to say contemporaneous instead of contemporary. Jesus is mentioned in the writings of ancient historians. m.gameknot.com <<and our earliest manuscripts of those are centuries after his death>> The Apostle Paul’s letters and the Gospels all date to within decades of Jesus Christ’s crucifixion and Resurrection. Note especially the Apostle Paul saying in his first letter to the church at Corinth that some of the eyewitnesses of the Resurrected Christ were still alive. “After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.” (1 Corinthians 15:6) <<in a foreign language (not the original Greek, Chaldean, and Hebrew),>> Do you have a source on this? I’d be curious to see it. <<and while that is plenty enough time for "Paul Bunyan" style stories to develop (Paul Bunyan isn't as old as the first manuscript mentions of Jesus), I still think he was most likely real.>> Nearly every secular historian (to my knowledge) agrees that Jesus Christ was a real person who was crucified. <<He was probably executed.>> Secular historians agree. <<Three days later it is even likely his followers managed to abscond with his body to another location.>> Toward what end? To claim He was Resurrected and to experience hardship, sufferings and execution in defense of a lie? Not something they were honestly mistaken about but something they knew to be a lie? And how did they get past the guards that the Pharisees stationed at the tomb to prevent them from doing exactly what you’re suggesting? <<The purported tomb of Jesus can be visited even now.>> I wasn’t aware of that. I know the Gospels are quite specific about the tomb, but I wasn’t aware it could be visited. <<I didn't go see it when I was in the Holy City. Instead I snapped photos of the old city from the Mount of Olives, and then went swimming in the Dead Sea.>> It’s great you got to go there. |
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coram_deo 29-Oct-21, 07:01 |
While I don’t think the Holy Bible says one way or the other on whether pets and animals will be in Heaven, I think this verse from Romans 8 (one of the greatest chapters in the Bible) says they will: “Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.” (Romans 8:21) Here are the preceding verses: “For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.” (Romans 8:19-21) Could be wrong, of course, but the “creature” is distinct from the sons of God and therefore leads me to believe that freedom from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of God will be experienced by animals also. |
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coram_deo 29-Oct-21, 07:07 |
Hi fellas! 👋 |
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coram_deo 29-Oct-21, 10:52 |
<<In reality, the only way to find out if a woman has had sex is to ask her.>> So when Mary, the mother of Jesus, said she had not known a man, we should believe her, right? By your standard, you just proved the Virgin birth of Jesus Christ! |
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coram_deo 29-Oct-21, 10:59 |
To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.” (Luke 1:26-35) |
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coram_deo 29-Oct-21, 11:50 |
“Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.” (Isaiah 7:14) |
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coram_deo 29-Oct-21, 15:47 |
<<Furthermore, how many people do you suppose were digging around in Mary to ascertain whether her hymen was intact? You don’t suppose that they may have made a mistake, been paid off, or had another reason for lying?>> You have quite a vivid imagination. As far as I know (and as far as you know too) no one was “digging around in Mary to ascertain whether her hymen was intact.” And therefore no one, to the best of my knowledge - and your knowledge too, made a mistake, was paid off or had another reason for lying. Where do you come up with this stuff? The Bible account says Joseph, when he learned Mary was pregnant, thought to put her away privately so as not to make her a public spectacle. Your wild fantasy of Mary being restrained on a bed or tied to a post while dozens of men examined her hymen is ludicrous. Here’s the account in the Gospel of Matthew: “Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily. But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins. Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.” (Matthew 1:18-25) Take a cold shower, zorroloco. And stop talking so much to Shiva. |
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coram_deo 06-Nov-21, 07:10 |
The Holy Bible doesn’t say the earth or the first humans were created 6,000 years ago. That’s a manufactured number from genealogies. And, as long as we’re on this subject, the Bible doesn’t say the sun revolves around the earth or that the earth is the center of the universe, which are two other popular misconceptions. |
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coram_deo 06-Nov-21, 07:44 |
<<<Thumper asks:: “The lingering question for you is, 'Why didn't He stop his own torture and murder'?”>>> <<The answer is obviously that he was just a man. He was killed like the thieves he was crucified with because he couldn’t do anything about it. Nor could his mythical father. No magical powers. Those who killed him were soldiers like you Thump, following orders.>> Jesus Christ said He was much more than a man. See this thread: m.gameknot.com And He demonstrated He was much more than a man. See this thread: m.gameknot.com In fact, through His statements and actions, Jesus Christ demonstrated He was who He said He was - the Son of God whose arrival on earth was prophesied numerous times in the Old Testament. See this thread: m.gameknot.com So, when it comes to Jesus Christ, you have to believe He is either a liar, crazy or the Son of God. He doesn’t give you the option of a “good man” or a “good teacher.” And Jesus Christ certainly could have prevented the torture and crucifixion He suffered: “Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?” (Matthew 26:52-54) He went to the cross willingly. “And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed, Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.” (Luke 22:41-42) “Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” (Philippians 2:5-11) |
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coram_deo 06-Nov-21, 08:05 |
“Do folks at the church you volunteer at know you don’t know who or what God is or what you believe?” Because if they did, they’d surely condemn you and force you from the church. Like Jesus would have, in Andrewland. He seems to think good Christians would make you a pariah.>> Wrong. But it’s not unusual for you to be wrong when you’re trying to think like a believer. You’re an atheist who seems to be hard-wired for hate - believers aren’t. At least not those who are devoted to regular reading of the Holy Bible, prayer and worshipping our Lord and Saviour. My question to Bob was exclusively about him - that is, if he gives different answers to what he believes depending on the group he’s in. I highly doubt Bob would say he doesn’t know who or what God is or what he believes if he was in the church he volunteers at having a conversation with a believer. Bob would expect the believer to hear something quite different and so would conform his answer to those expectations. How do I know this? Because when Bob asked to join this club, I asked if He believed in the Virgin birth of Jesus Christ, the miracles Jesus Christ performed and the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, and he answered “Yes” to all 3. But his answers, which is what he thought I wanted to hear (I actually just wanted to hear the truth of what he believes,) were in a PM. I suspected he wasn’t telling the truth because of how often he was attacking Christians on this forum - and attacking them exclusively. Then a couple of months later, when an atheist at FIAT LUX III asked what he believed, he tried to answer in a PM until the club founder instructed him to answer publicly. That’s when he came up with that remarkable word salad where he said he didn’t know who or what God is or what he believes - and then spent an inordinate amount of time on stream-of-consciousness rambling. But keep drawing false conclusions based on your cartoonish and hateful view of believers, instead of just asking questions. |
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coram_deo 06-Nov-21, 08:23 |
Hey Bob, In response to your post here m.gameknot.com (the last paragraph I posted above.) I think you’re conflating believing in Jesus Christ’s Resurrection (what Christianity was founded upon) with less important doctrines and views concerning God and the Holy Bible. The Apostle Paul believed in the Resurrection of Jesus Christ - in fact, He had an encounter with the Resurrected Christ on the Road to Damascus (see Acts chapter 9.) The Apostle Paul wasn’t wandering around, wondering who Jesus Christ was and what happened to His body. He went on numerous missionary trips preaching about Jesus Christ and His Resurrection and that forgiveness of sins was through Him. If you don’t think the Apostle Paul knew what he believed, what was he preaching on all those missionary trips? What was he writing in all those letters to the early churches? I have no idea what I believe, guys, figure it out for yourselves? Jesus Christ’s disciples believed in His Resurrection because they saw the Resurrected Christ and attested to that and suffered beatings, imprisonments and execution rather than deny it. You’ve (repeatedly) failed to say (at least publicly) if you believe in the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. It’s really a simple question - you either do or you don’t. But don’t claim you’re like the Apostle Paul or other early Christians in saying you don’t know who or what God is or what you believe. They weren’t referring to the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, and I think you know that. |
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coram_deo 06-Nov-21, 10:25 |
Wasn’t there there an obedient God fearing old testament dude that tried to pass off a lambs heart for the heart of his son after God had demanded he, (the son), be sacrificed? God quickly forgave the dude for the high end disobedience. The message? What you love the most, more than you love yourself, must be your child, or, only God can love enough to give his son.>> I’d love to know the citation (book, chapter and verse) for the “obedient God fearing Old Testament dude that tried to pass off a lambs heart for the heart of his son after God had demanded he, (the son), be sacrificed?” If you’re referring to Abraham and Isaac, that’s a gross misrepresentation of what happened (in fact what you wrote is completely false.) Not that I think you care. If you’re not referring to Abraham and Isaac, maybe somebody will shed light on what you’re referring to. |
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coram_deo 06-Nov-21, 10:41 |
It’s a great story.>> Hey zorroloco, You know the story of the “obedient God fearing old testament dude that tried to pass off a lambs heart for the heart of his son after God had demanded he, (the son), be sacrificed?” Where in the Old Testament is it? <<Not unlike the tale of Prometheus sacrificing himself (tied to a cliff to have his liver torn out by an eagle every day. It magically regrew so he could be tortured again and again) in order to give fire 🔥 (fire = salvation during long scary predator filled nights) to mankind. Years later, rescued (resurrected one might say) by Herecles. From Wiki Prometheus is best known for defying the gods by stealing fire from them and giving it to humanity in the form of technology, knowledge, and more generally, civilization. In some versions of the myth he is also credited with the creation of humanity from clay. Prometheus is known for his intelligence and for being a champion of humankind,[3] and is also generally seen as the author of the human arts and sciences.[citation needed] He is sometimes presented as the father of Deucalion, the hero of the flood story.[4][5][6]>> <<Zorroloco Yep, re; not so unlike the tale. Many earlier tales were rewritten and presented in the Old Testament.>> <<Jon Yes. That’s true. Same with holidays. Much easier to co-opt the existing belief system if you fashion the new one to have enough similarities to be familiar. Do that for a couple years and generations and people will cleave to the new myths as passionately as their grandparents clung to the old ones.>> This old chestnut and hobby horse? That the tenets of Christianity were borrowed from other religions and belief systems? Have a gander at this, fellas! From gotquestions.org: Are the ideas of Jesus and Christianity borrowed from Mithra and Zoroastrianism? Did Judaism and Christianity borrow the Messiah, the resurrection, and final judgment from Zoroastrianism / Mithra? Many doctrines of the Christian faith have parallels in Zoroastrianism, e.g., the virgin birth, the son of God, and resurrection. Some scholars say that Zarathustra (a.k.a. Zoroaster) lived around 600–500 BC. If that is the case, David, Isaiah, and Jeremiah (all of whom mention the Messiah, the resurrection and the final judgment in their writings), lived and wrote before Zarathustra. Some scholars say that Zoroaster lived sometime between 1500 and 1200 BC. If that is the case, the case for Christianity borrowing from Zoroastrianism would be stronger, but the fact is we don’t know when Zarathustra lived (hence the disagreement among scholars), and so this argument is speculative at best. The Greek historian Herodotus (5th century BC) doesn’t mention Zoroaster in his treatise on the Medo-Persian religions, though Plato, who was born roughly around the time Herodotus died, does mention him in his Alcibiades (see Wikipedia’s entry on Zoroaster;en.wikipedia.org). But establishing when Zarathustra lived is only the first step. Next, we have to establish what he actually taught (as opposed to what modern Zoroastrianism claims he taught). The only source for Zarathustra’s teachings is the Avesta, and the oldest copies we have of the Avesta date from the 13th century AD. The late date for this collection of writings lends no support whatsoever to the idea that Christians borrowed from Zoroastrianism (the oldest copies of the Jewish Scriptures that we have today date centuries before Christ, and the oldest complete manuscripts of the Christian Scriptures we have date from the 4th century AD). This looks to be another case of skeptics citing a pre-Christian religion, assuming that the post-Christian form of the religion (which we know about) has remained faithful to the pre-Christian form of the religion (which we know nothing about) and speculating that the similarities between the religion and Christianity are due to Christianity borrowing from the religion in question. It’s a philosophical argument without solid evidence to back it up. Have we any good reason not to suppose that it was Zoroastrianism which borrowed from Christianity and not vice versa? We know that Zoroastrianism borrowed freely from the polytheistic faiths of the region in which it became popular. Mithra, for example, was a Persian god who found a prominent role in Zoroastrianism. Mithra’s Hindu counterpart is the god Mitra. All philosophical arguments aside, we know that Jesus Christ was a real historical figure, that He fulfilled numerous specific prophecies written and preserved hundreds of years before His life, that He died on a cross, and that He was reported to have risen from the dead and interacted with men and women who were willing to suffer horribly and die for this testimony. www.gotquestions.org Want to get specific about belief systems that Christianity allegedly borrowed from? But first let’s clear up the identity of the “obedient God fearing old testament dude that tried to pass off a lambs heart for the heart of his son after God had demanded he, (the son), be sacrificed.” Maybe Bob can tell us who this Old Testament dude is? |
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coram_deo 06-Nov-21, 10:49 |
From blueletterbible.org: Was the Story of Jesus’ Resurrection Borrowed from Other Ancient Accounts of a Dying and Rising God? (The Mystery Religions) Objections to the Resurrection of Jesus – Question 6 One way for critics to view the New Testament story of Jesus’ resurrection is to accuse the gospel writers of borrowing the idea from other popular stories that were circulating in the Roman Empire. At the time of Jesus, there was widespread worship of gods who died and then rose again. For example, in Mesopotamia, the god Tammuz was said to have died and then rose again. In Egypt, Osiris is alleged to have died and then come back to life. In Syria, the name of the dying and rising god was Adonis and in Asia Minor his name was Attis. Thus, Jesus is merely the Judean version of a common belief in the ancient world. This is a common accusation. Response to the Comparison between Jesus and the Mystery Religions While this argument used to be popular as an objection to the resurrection of Jesus Christ, in recent years, this theory has been seen for what it is; a totally invalid comparison. There are a number of reasons as to why this is the case. They are as follows. 1. There Is No Real Comparison between Jesus and the Mystery Religions The most basic problem in the comparison between Jesus and the gods of the mystery religions concerns their historical reality. Jesus was an historical person while the heroes of the story in the mystery religions were not. Jesus lived at a certain time in history. The New Testament records scores of historical details about Him. We know when He lived, who was ruling Rome at the time, the Jewish and Roman leaders in His region, as well as many other historical facts about His life and the people with whom He associated. This is not true of any of the heroes of these mystery religions. Therefore, in one sense, there is no comparison between them and Jesus Christ. 2. Many of the Stories Came after the Time of Christ There is something else. Many of the stories of a god who died and then came back to life were actually composed after the time of Christ, not before. In fact, most, if not all of them, can be traced to the time after Jesus lived. Therefore, any borrowing that may have occurred was from the story of Jesus and not the other way around. 3. There Is a Logical Fallacy Involved in This Comparison The rejection of Jesus’ resurrection, because it may be similar to accounts of certain dying and rising gods in the ancient world, is actually a logical fallacy. Whether or not there were similar incidents, or similar claims by other religious figures, really has nothing to do with Jesus and His claims. What He said and did must be viewed on its own. It does not matter if there were one thousand similar claims. We need to examine the evidence of the New Testament and see if it stands up to the most rigorous of historical tests. In fact, it does. Summary – Question 6 Was the Story of Jesus’ Resurrection Borrowed from Other Ncient Accounts of a Dying and Rising God? (The Mystery Religions) At one time, it was fashionable to attribute the resurrection of Jesus Christ to the early believers borrowing from other stories of a dying, rising god that were circulating at the time. Since similar stories were found in such places as Egypt, Asia Minor and Syria, it is not surprising that the story showed up in Judea. However, this is no longer a popular way of dealing with the resurrection story. There are a number of reasons as to why this is so. For one thing, Jesus was an historical person while these figures were not. Therefore, at the outset we are not dealing with the same thing. In addition, most, if not all of the accounts came after the time of Christ. Therefore, it there were any borrowing it was from the New Testament rather than the New Testament writers borrowing from popular stories of the time. Finally, there is a logical fallacy involved in this type of reasoning. Merely because there are similarities between Jesus and other religious figures has nothing to do with His identity or the truthfulness of His claims. His claims must be examined on their own merit. We should not reject them simply because there may have been similar claims made for some other religious figure. The real question is, “How do Jesus claims match up with the evidence?” When we examine the evidence we find that His claims are true. www.blueletterbible.org |
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coram_deo 06-Nov-21, 15:49 |
I think the story you have in mind is Gen. 22:1-19. It's slightly different from how you remember it.>> Slightly different?! 😂 Here’s what Jon wrote: <<Wasn’t there there an obedient God fearing old testament dude that tried to pass off a lambs heart for the heart of his son after God had demanded he, (the son), be sacrificed? God quickly forgave the dude for the high end disobedience. The message? What you love the most, more than you love yourself, must be your child, or, only God can love enough to give his son.>> And here’s what he recollected: “And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am. And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of. And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him. Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off. And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you. And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together. And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together. And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood. And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son. And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the Lord it shall be seen. And the angel of the Lord called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice. So Abraham returned unto his young men, and they rose up and went together to Beersheba; and Abraham dwelt at Beersheba.” (Genesis 22:1-19) Slightly different? Try nowhere near the same. God never intended for Abraham to sacrifice his son nor was there ever any ruse involving a lamb’s heart. Good grief, Bob! |
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coram_deo 06-Nov-21, 16:21 |
Good grief again, Bob! From your off-the-rails interpretation of Genesis 1 to your everyone goes to Heaven silliness, it’s apparent you’ve either been smoking Z’s flowers or you’ve been brainwashed by some wacky cult. Jesus Christ, the Apostle John, the Apostle Paul and numerous others are clear that belief and faith in Jesus Christ are essential (a requirement) for salvation. “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” (John 14:6) “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16) “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” (Romans 10:9) “And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.” (Acts 16:30-32) “Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.” (1 John 2:22-23) “Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.” (Matthew 7:13-14) And there are many more… <<Paul also holds out Abraham as the model of faith, even though Abraham knew nothing about Jesus.>> Bob, you do realize that Jesus Christ existed eternally? That Jesus Christ is/was God? “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.” (John 1:1-14) More specifically, Abraham met Jesus in Genesis 18. What do you make of this? From unashamedofjesus.org: And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, Genesis 18:1-2 This is a very interesting text, here we see Abraham says the Lord “Yahweh” appears to him. The original Hebrew in the text has YHWH translated as LORD in English. So we know that Abraham is saying God appeared to him The next part is astonishing as God appeared to Abraham in the form of 3 men. People who say the Triunity of God was made up by the Romans or Greek mythology has never studied this text. Here we see the Triunity of God in the Torah. This is symbolic of the Father, Son , and Holy Spirit. So we can make assumption that one of these men were Jesus Christ. Abraham has now met Jesus face to face and the text says Abraham bowed to the ground to them And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him. Genesis 18:10 Why did God appear to Abraham in human form? Well first remember the seed of the Messiah was going to come from Israel by Abraham. So Abraham had divine revelation from God more than anyone at this point. Second Jesus had a special prophetic message to deliver to Abraham. That by next year the promised Son of Isaac would be here. This is the blessing that Abraham and Sarah have been waiting for years! unashamedofjesus.org Abraham (then named Abram) may also have met with Jesus in Genesis 14, if one believes Melchizedek, whom Abram gave tithes to, was Jesus Christ. |
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coram_deo 07-Nov-21, 05:06 |
zorroloco said: <<<I’ll even cede that the majority of Christians today agree with you.>>> bobspringett said: <<No, don't cede that. I don't claim that it is majority belief among all who claim to be Christians. Only among orthodox, mainstream, mature Christians who understand theology.>> So mainstream Christians are not a majority? How then are they mainstream? How can you be a “mature Christian” when you don’t know who or what God is or what you believe? Those were your words, Bob - not mine. How do you define a Christian, Bob? If you say you’re a mature Christian and yet you don’t know who or what God is or what you believe, how are you defining Christianity? What, in your view, makes someone a Christian? I don’t expect you to answer. Just as you won’t answer whether you believe in the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. At least you won’t answer that publicly. Why not? bobspringett said: <<I just noticed that beloved Coram has AGAIN failed to understand what he has read.>> I said: <<<From your off-the-rails interpretation of Genesis 1 to your everyone goes to Heaven silliness, it’s apparent you’ve either been smoking Z’s flowers or you’ve been brainwashed by some wacky cult.>>> bobspringett said: <<I've already referenced my 'off-the-rails' interpretation of Genesis 1 back to Gordon Wenham, among the most respected Pentateuch scholars of the 20th century;>> You’ve got one guy who believes that nonsense and you claim it’s a “mainstream” interpretation. Most Biblical scholars believe in a literal interpretation of the creation account in Genesis. You know who else did? Jesus Christ and His disciples. Where do the first humans fit into your evolutionary, wildly symbolic interpretation of Genesis 1? Was Adam a real person or was he symbolic? What about Eve? How did sin enter the world? Your wacky symbolism in Genesis 1 affects more than the creation account, Bob. <<but Coram still hasn't registered that.>> Oh I’ve gone beyond that, Bob. <<Now he thinks I said "everyone goes to heaven". Check out my post, and tell me where I said that!>> Tell us who goes to Heaven, Bob. What’s the criteria? Sadly, I suspect this is yet another question you won’t answer. <<Perhaps he misunderstood my reference to Karl Barth, the dominant Protestant theologian in the last hundred years, but not even Barth said that. I even finished with 'make of that what you will!'>> I’m not impressed with your appeals to book learning, Bob. Wisdom comes from God’s Holy Spirit, which indwells every believer. <<His 'explanation' that Abraham met Jesus is pure invention.>> It’s fact and it wasn’t meant as an explanation. I was simply pointing out that your statement that Abraham knew nothing of Jesus Christ was false. Not only did Abraham meet Jesus at least once, Jesus was/is God, Bob, and has existed eternally. Do you believe in the Trinity, Bob? I suspect that’s another question you won’t answer. Your belief system, such as it is, seems wedded to promoting yourself as a learned theologian and promoting your books in which you rewrite the Holy Bible as science fiction entertainment. You won’t answer the most fundamental questions about Christianity. Why is that? <<It is an unjustifiable interpretation of Genesis often trotted out by fundamentalists to patch an obvious hole in their doctrines.>> What hole, Bob? I only referenced Abraham meeting Jesus Christ because you falsely claimed Abraham knew nothing of Jesus. But leaving that aside, you do know that Jesus said He and the Father are one, right? Do you believe that Jesus Christ existed eternally, as He Himself stated? Sadly, I suspect this is another question you won’t answer. <<It also implies that all the other Old Testament saints must have also met Jesus,>> It implies no such thing, Bob. I was simply correcting a false statement that you made. <<but left no record of these meetings. I would have thought that such meetings might have prompted at least a verse or two!>> You’re arguing against a straw man that you set up, Bob. <<William of Ockham would roll his eyes.>> Tell Billy not to do that too often or his eyes may stay that way. <<Have I been 'brainwashed by some wacky cult'? I invite Coram to outline his background and theological qualifications; I have already outlined mine in previous posts.>> Bob, I’m not impressed with your earthly and carnal qualifications. Wisdom comes from God’s Holy Spirit. Do you believe that God’s Holy Spirit indwells believers when they accept and believe in Jesus Christ and in His Resurrection? Or is that still another question you won’t answer? <<In fact, I have even tried to help him out in one of his own Club threads by explaining to him in a private message what 'five-point Calvinism' is; his attempt to explain how Calvinism differs from Arminianism showed a poor understanding of the meaning of some technical terms.>> Sure, Bob 🙄 |
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coram_deo 07-Nov-21, 05:40 |
“Genesis 18 tells how Abraham was visited one day by three men. He had no idea who they were, but being a very hospitable man, Abraham laid on a splendid feast for them. His wife Sarah made a pile of fresh bread, while he offered a tender young calf, which his servants killed and cooked for the visitors. We are not told that he gave them wine, but, doubtless where that was available, it too would be served to important guests. Subsequently Abraham discovered who his visitors were — the Lord and two angels!” lifecoach4god.life |
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coram_deo 07-Nov-21, 05:47 |
Who is the Lord in this chapter? Who is Abraham speaking to and interacting with? “And the Lord appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant: Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree: And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said. And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said, Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes upon the hearth. And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetcht a calf tender and good, and gave it unto a young man; and he hasted to dress it. And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat. And they said unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent. And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him. Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women. Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also? And the Lord said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old? Is any thing too hard for the Lord? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son. Then Sarah denied, saying, I laughed not; for she was afraid. And he said, Nay; but thou didst laugh. And the men rose up from thence, and looked toward Sodom: and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way. And the Lord said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do; Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the Lord, to do justice and judgment; that the Lord may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him. And the Lord said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know. And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the Lord. And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked? Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein? That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? And the Lord said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes. And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes: Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it. And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake. And he said unto him, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there. And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake. And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake. And the Lord went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.” (Genesis 18) |
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