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US Turns on Ukraine
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 Shiva 12:44How much is propaganda misinformation, and how much is true? I might give SOME passing credibility to this; after all, mutinies in the Czarist Army were escalating in 1917/18, driving the Soviets to make a peace (Treaty of Brest-Litovsk) that was not far short of complete surrender. But in WW2 the Russian Soldier showed he was capable of the surviving most deplorable conditions, the most horrendous abuse, and still be an effective soldier. What was the difference? In both cases they were under the control of an autocratic, brutal regime. One key difference is that in WW1, Russia was the aggressor against Germany and Austria-Hungary instead of remaining aloof. This adventure backfired enormously. Contrast that to WW2, when Germany was the aggressor and Russia was fighting for its continued existence. The Russian Soldier is capable of the most amazing endurance to protect Mother Russia; but he is less eager to endure for the sake of the Czar's foreign ambitions. Even a Czar named 'Vladimir'. So maybe there is some truth in these reports; but I doubt it is on the scale the article implies. |
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jonheck 02-Aug-25, 15:12 |
so long |
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Groper Doesn’t Have the Cards Gemini: While reports of mass surrenders of Russian troops in Ukraine are not common, there have been isolated incidents and instances of individual soldiers surrendering. One notable case is the Makiivka surrender incident, where a group of Russian soldiers surrendered to Ukrainian forces, but one soldier then opened fire, resulting in casualties. Overall, the war in Ukraine has seen significant casualties on both sides, with estimates of Russian force losses ranging from 195,500 to 274,580 killed and 750,000 wounded. End quote. Now in its third year, contrast this with Vietnam. A major superpower lost 50,000 soldiers over the course of 13 years, our second longest war. The US war on Afghanistan lasted nearly 20 years. Big nations wage war on little nations, and nothing comes of it beyond a lot of pointless death and destruction. I don’t dispute that the attack on Afghanistan was justified. They allowed their country to be a staging/training ground, harboring bin Laden. So yay. But then we lost focus of the goal, diverting our attention to more needless bloodshed to satiate Bush’s lust for gore and glory, and lost everything. I believe King Pedo Groper’s success was due in large measure to Republican base disaffection with establishment politicians, and their desire to toss a flaming sack of dog feces into the White House in contempt. Meaning no disrespect to burning bags of canine excrement. Vance: “For four years, the United States of America, we had a president who stood up at press conferences and talked tough about Vladimir Putin, and then Putin invaded Ukraine and destroyed a significant chunk of the country. The path to peace and the path to prosperity is, maybe, engaging in diplomacy. We tried the pathway of Joe Biden, of thumping our chest and pretending that the president of the United States’ words mattered more than the president of the United States’ actions. What makes America a good country is America engaging in diplomacy. That’s what President Trump is doing.” Zelenskyy: “Can I ask you?” Vance: “Sure. Yeah.” Zelenskyy: “OK. So he (Putin) occupied it, our parts, big parts of Ukraine, parts of east and Crimea. So he occupied it in 2014. So during a lot of years — I’m not speaking about just Biden, but those times was (Barack) Obama, then President Obama, then President Trump, then President Biden, now President Trump. And God bless, now, President Trump will stop him. But during 2014, nobody stopped him. He just occupied and took. He killed people. You know what the –” Trump: “2015?” Zelenskyy: “2014.” Trump: “Oh, 2014? I was not here.” Vance: “That’s exactly right.” Zelenskyy: “Yes, but during 2014 ’til 2022, the situation is the same, that people have been dying on the contact line. Nobody stopped him. You know that we had conversations with him, a lot of conversations, my bilateral conversation. And we signed with him, me, like, you, president, in 2019, I signed with him the deal. I signed with him, (French President Emmanuel) Macron and (former German Chancellor Angela) Merkel. We signed ceasefire. Ceasefire. All of them told me that he will never go … But after that, he broke the ceasefire, he killed our people, and he didn’t exchange prisoners. We signed the exchange of prisoners. But he didn’t do it. What kind of diplomacy, JD, you are speaking about? What do you mean?” [Every nation understands the US is utterly faithless. No agreement is worth the paper it is printed on, nor may be enforced longer than it takes to read it.] Vance: “I’m talking about the kind of diplomacy that’s going to end the destruction of your country. Mr. President, with respect, I think it’s disrespectful for you to come into the Oval Office to try to litigate this in front of the American media. [The president invited the media, including Russian state reporters—NOT Zelenskyy.] Right now, you guys are going around and forcing conscripts to the front lines because you have manpower problems. You should be thanking the president for trying to bring an end to this conflict.” Zelenskyy: “Have you ever been to Ukraine that you say what problems we have?” Vance: “I have been to –” Zelenskyy: “Come once.” Vance: “I’ve actually watched and seen the stories, and I know that what happens is you bring people, you bring them on a propaganda tour, Mr. President. Do you disagree that you’ve had problems, bringing people into your military?” Zelenskyy: “We have problems –” Vance: “And do you think that is respectful to come to the Oval Office of the United States of America and attack the administration that is trying to prevent the destruction of your country?” Zelenskyy: “A lot of questions. Let’s start from the beginning.” Vance: “Sure.” Zelenskyy: “First of all, during the war, everybody has problems, even you. But you have nice ocean and don’t feel now. But you will feel it in the future. God bless –” Trump: “You don’t know that. You don’t know that. Don’t tell us what we’re going to feel. We’re trying to solve a problem. Don’t tell us what we’re going to feel.” Zelenskyy: “I’m not telling you. I am answering on these questions.” Trump: “Because you’re in no position to dictate that.” Vance: “That’s exactly what you’re doing.” Trump: “You are in no position to dictate what we’re going to feel. We’re going to feel very good.” Zelenskyy: “You will feel influenced.” Trump: “We are going to feel very good and very strong.” Zelenskyy: “I am telling you. You will feel influenced.” Trump: “You’re, right now, not in a very good position. You’ve allowed yourself to be in a very bad position –” Zelenskyy: “From the very beginning of the war —” Trump: “You’re not in a good position. You don’t have the cards right now. With us, you start having cards.” Zelenskyy: “I’m not playing cards. I’m very serious, Mr. President. I’m very serious.” Trump: “You’re playing cards. You’re gambling with the lives of millions of people. You’re gambling with World War III.” Zelenskyy: “What are you speaking about?” Trump: “You’re gambling with World War III. And what you’re doing is very disrespectful to the country, this country that’s backed you far more than a lot of people said they should have.” Vance: “Have you said thank you once?” Zelenskyy: “A lot of times. Even today.” Vance: “No, in this entire meeting. You went to Pennsylvania and campaigned for the opposition in October.” Zelenskyy: “No.” Vance: “Offer some words of appreciation for the United States of America and the president who’s trying to save your country.” Zelenskyy: “Please. You think that if you will speak very loudly about the war, you can –” Trump: “He’s not speaking loudly. He’s not speaking loudly. Your country is in big trouble.” Zelenskyy: “Can I answer —” Trump: “No, no. You’ve done a lot of talking. Your country is in big trouble.” Zelenskyy: “I know. I know.” Trump: “You’re not winning. You’re not winning this. You have a damn good chance of coming out OK because of us.” Zelenskyy: “Mr. President, we are staying in our country, staying strong. From the very beginning of the war, we’ve been alone. And we are thankful. I said thanks.” Trump: “If you didn’t have our military equipment, this war would have been over in two weeks.” Zelenskyy: “In three days. I heard it from Putin. In three days.” Trump: “Maybe less. It’s going to be a very hard thing to do business like this, I tell you. Vance: “Just say thank you.” Zelenskyy: “I said a lot of times, thank you, to American people.” Vance: “Accept that there are disagreements, and let’s go litigate those disagreements rather than trying to fight it out in the American media when you’re wrong. We know that you’re wrong.” Trump: “But you see, I think it’s good for the American people to see what’s going on. I think it’s very important. That’s why I kept this going so long. You have to be thankful.” Zelenskyy: “I’m thankful.” Trump: “You don’t have the cards. You’re buried there. People are dying. You’re running low on soldiers. It would be a damn good thing, and then you tell us, ‘I don’t want a ceasefire. I don’t want a ceasefire, I want to go, and I want this.’ Look, if you can get a ceasefire right now, I tell you, you take it so the bullets stop flying and your men stop getting killed.” Zelenskyy: “Of course we want to stop the war. But I said to you, with guarantees.” Trump: “Are you saying you don’t want a ceasefire? I want a ceasefire. Because you’ll get a ceasefire faster than an agreement.” Zelenskyy: “Ask our people about a ceasefire, what they think.” Trump: “That wasn’t with me. That was with a guy named Biden, who is not a smart person.” Zelenskyy: “This is your president. It was your president.” Trump: “Excuse me. That was with Obama, who gave you sheets, and I gave you Javelins. I gave you the Javelins to take out all those tanks. Obama gave you sheets. In fact, the statement is Obama gave sheets, and Trump gave Javelins. You’ve got to be more thankful because let me tell you, you don’t have the cards. With us, you have the cards, but without us, you don’t have any cards.” Vance, restating a reporter’s question: “She is asking what if Russia breaks the ceasefire.” Trump: “What, if anything? What if the bomb drops on your head right now? OK, what if they broke it? I don’t know, they broke it with Biden because Biden, they didn’t respect him. They didn’t respect Obama. They respect me. Let me tell you, Putin went through a hell of a lot with me. He went through a phony witch hunt … All I can say is this. He might have broken deals with Obama and Bush, and he might have broken them with Biden. He did, maybe. Maybe he did. I don’t know what happened, but he didn’t break them with me. He wants to make a deal. I don’t know if you can make a deal.” “The problem is I’ve empowered you (turning toward Zelenskyy) to be a tough guy, and I don’t think you’d be a tough guy without the United States. And your people are very brave. But you’re either going to make a deal or we’re out. And if we’re out, you’ll fight it out. I don’t think it’s going to be pretty, but you’ll fight it out. But you don’t have the cards. But once we sign that deal, you’re in a much better position, but you’re not acting at all thankful. And that’s not a nice thing. I’ll be honest. That’s not a nice thing. “All right, I think we’ve seen enough. What do you think? This is going to be great television. I will say that.” [Again, Trump has no control over what media is permitted into his office?] |
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Ceasefire news.sky.com These civilians were murdered early on in a humanitarian flight corridor. Russian troops have murdered many, many more since then. More Russian atrocities: risu.ua |
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"Vlad, old buddy; can you see your way clear to giving back some Ukrainian territory?" "Sorry, Great One, but not just yet. " "Well, they can't say I didn't try." "I'll tell you what, Great One; wait until we have occupied all of the oblasts we have proclaimed as 'annexed', and then I'll offer the bits of Kharkov oblast that we still hold. You can tell the world that it was only your brilliance that forced us to withdraw from Kharkov." "Well, if that's the best you can do, I suppose we can live with that." "That's right, Great One. Whether its a win or a loss all depends on what you compare it to. So long as you get to pick the comparison point, you'll always be a winner." "But what will the Europeans say? France, Britain, Germany?" "Oh, they're all neo-nazi warmongers. Here I am, offering peace, and they refuse to stop pouring fuel on the fire! You want peace, I want peace, and we agree on how to achieve it. It's the guys who want to keep fighting who want war." "Yeah, I guess we'll always have people like that, people who want everything their own way." "By-the-way, Great One; how's things with Iran? Do you intend to shake them up a bit more?...." |
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Shiva 16:26 Actually, Putin DOES honour cease-fires. In as far and for as long as it suits his purposes. But no further and no longer. The trick to ending this war is to convince Putin that honouring a cease-fire completely and permanently will give him the best result he can hope for. |
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Does Putin want peace? Of course he does! Does Zelensky want peace? Of course he does! He wants it immediately, and ON HIS OWN TERMS. Those terms are the complete recovery of all lands currently occupied, and a few trillion roubles to repair damage wouldn't go astray either. Does Trump want peace? Of course he does! He wants it immediately, and ON HIS OWN TERMS. In the short term, what he wants is all the praise and glory as a 'peacemaker,' but not even Donald is so shallow as to settle for nothing more than that. Those terms include that he regains control and even privileges in Putin's Russia. It's always a good idea for an entrepreneur to be on good terms with a corrupt government. And a few concessions out of Ukraine, such as rare earths, would be a nice bonus. And Trump is very good at getting peace. Just find a few countries that are NOT hostile towards each other, then offer them a few billion of American taxpayer dollars if they sign a treaty to continue not being hostile. That's 'peace', baby! Or if there is a war going, just keep asking them to stop and they'll get some of Uncle Sam's pocket money. Don't take 'No' for an answer, just keep asking and offering, and eventually when they are both exhausted and would call for a truce anyway, they will thank Donald for his 'indispensable help' while holding out their hands. All those greenbacks will pay for next year's renewed offensive. "Wanting peace" is something everyone likes to do, but only if they get what they want in the process. Donald will do his darndest to give everyone what they want, so long as the US taxpayer funds it and he personally gets the benefits for his own investments. But golly, doesn't he get frustrated when their price is too high! Some of them even want to win freedom for their country and will reject personal wealth to get it! What losers! |
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Two minutes? Before the anchorage meeting he said he would know within the first two minutes if there was going to be a result. Three hours later there is no reported progress. What is Trump's objective in these talks? Simple! To be on the front page of next morning's newspapers. |
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In The News |
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TACO Trump knows that promises work against the foolish (his own base!), and threats work against the weak. Perhaps he now realises that Putin sees him as both. |
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Realization |
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Security Guarantees We already gave Ukraine security guarantees thirty years ago, promises kept the way a hungry mongrel dog might promise to not eat your chicken lunch while your back is turned. Why should anyone give two cents credit to any promise the US makes? We are as faithless as an inebriated sailor on shore leave in a house of ill repute after a six month tour of duty, or Don to any of his multiple wives. |
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Kasparov Garry Kasparov, russian dissident and former world chess champion |
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Answer:- Because that's what he would do! Which means that the only way to be confident there will be not further Russian aggression is to make it physically impossible for Russia to wage war. And of course, that automatically means that it would also be impossible for Russia to defend itself against a concerted Western attack. Which is why Putin will never accept anything short of a demilitarised Ukraine; and if Ukraine is demilitarised, there is nothing to stop another blitzkrieg by Russia once it gets its military back up to 'overwhelming'. So we should all stop pretending that Putin can be persuaded, not even by 'boots on the ground'. That will only feed into his paranoia. It seems that for the foreseeable future the only 'solution' is to enforce a stalemate. That will be easier and cheaper to do if Russia's economy is starved. Trump at least has that part right (bad luck, India, but that's part of the price for cheap oil). I would warn against any attempt to engineer 'regime change' in Russia. History has taught that even if it is successful in the short term, the next generation will re-interpret it as yet another grievance. Versailles led to Hitler, the Shah led to the Islamic Republic. The long term will be satisfied only by Russians taking control of their own future; until them we need to just minimise the damage. Meanwhile, guess who's winning. A hint = The Middle Kingdom. |
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