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 BodiesThe National Review dismisses the travesty of cultural genocide nit picking whether the graves identified by ground penetrating radar contain identifiable remains or not. The fact is shallow graves in fertile soil don’t preserve organic material well. And the parents of deceased children have likely passed on themselves, leaving no one to grant permission for exhuming corpses if we even knew who was buried where. The NR asserts no remains have been dug up, but doesn’t claim anyone has even tried digging graves. Yet a child rarely misses part of a jaw and survives without anyone noticing, where the jaw ends up near an identified grave site. It is interesting, the cultural differences between groups. My father gathered many I teresti g stories from our time on the reservation. One was that it was disrespectful to stare into another persons eyes, leading to the distrustful “shifty eyed Indian” meme. One group was showing the other respect, which was interpreted completely wrong. |
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Shiva 17:58 I have no doubt that child abuse in general was rampant, because the world is full of demonstrated instances of children from oppressed groups being abused. The question is whether or not such abuse can be demonstrated in specific cases, and who (singular or plural) was responsible for that abuse in what degree. So far, I have picked up that there are 'indications' of many graves. What seems to be yet to be demonstrated are whether or not these 'indications' have been followed up to reveal children's bodies, which children, and what signs of abuse were detected (if any) as opposed to disease or misadventure. There is also historical documentary evidence that all parts of society at the time (not just Church, but also the State and the white population in general) had racist attitudes that didn't show proper concern for the welfare of Indian children and in many cases acted contrary to what we today would consider their best interests. These attitudes would tend to promote and excuse such abuse, but that falls short of demonstrating that it occurred in this specific time and place. So let's start using evidence to discuss the relevant points rather than waving around generalisations and following red herrings. |
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jonheck 12-Mar-25, 22:45 |
bobspringett Any attitudes that would give justified cause to slavery would also have given cause to the genocide of the American Indian. There is historical documented evidence that slavery happened in America. |
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Jon I'm not disagreeing with what you say, but what you say is too generalised to be applied as a universal. The task now is to demonstrate that these schools are specific instances where specific people committed specific abuses. |
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jonheck 13-Mar-25, 01:19 |
bobspringett |
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jonheck 13-Mar-25, 02:03 |
bobspringett |
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@L_S 17:58 <<No human remains found 2 years after claims of ‘mass graves’ in Canada After two years of horror stories about the alleged mass graves of Indigenous children at residential schools across Canada, a series of recent excavations at suspected sites has turned up no human remains. Some academics and politicians say it’s further evidence that the stories are unproven.>> nypost.com Why would a claim of thousands of unmarked graves of indigenous children on school properties be made? Call me a cynic, but this paragraph from further down the New York Post story may provide an answer… <<Within days of the Kamloops announcement, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau decreed, partly at the request of tribal leaders, that all flags on federal buildings fly at half-staff. The Canadian government and provincial authorities pledged about $320 million to fund more research and in December pledged another $40 billion involving First Nations child-welfare claim settlements that partially compensate some residential school attendees.>> Saying indigenous children were treated poorly, even abused, at those schools (which is obviously much more believable) doesn’t create a media firestorm the way unmarked graves of children does. And you need a media firestorm to get governments and the Catholic church to pay money. What the ground-penetrating radar found were anomalies in the ground, which the media irresponsibly reported as unmarked graves and human remains. This is an excerpt from an article published more than a year *before* the New York Post article and shows how irresponsible and false the media reporting on this has been… <<The remains of more than 1,000 people, mostly children, have been discovered on the grounds of three former residential schools in two Canadian provinces since May. In late June, the remains of 751 people, mainly Indigenous children, were discovered at the site of a former school in the province of Saskatchewan, a Canadian Indigenous group said.>> www.nytimes.com |
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JH & Andrew A common method of disposing of recalcitrant slaves was to render them by dogs. People talk about reparations for slavery, but the US government already paid all the reparations anyone might expect. That is, former slave owners were compensated for their loss of property, in a few cases. Wealth must be protected, after all. The sole responsibility of conservative government is protection (and aggrandizement) of the assets of the rich. MAGA. << Saying indigenous children were treated poorly, even abused, at those schools (which is obviously much more believable) doesn’t create a media firestorm the way unmarked graves of children does.>> Really? Because the Catholic Church had WAY less sexual abuse victims, or maybe a little less, but that firestorm remains far bigger, with FAR more money doled out in court judgments. The native schools never made much money even with sweatshop labor. Grant funds tended to go to infrastructure as opposed to salaries, unlike modern charter school funds which end up financing luxury yachts. |
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Marked vs. Unmarked I am reminded of the Sandy Hook incident, where Alex Jones insisted child actors played the roles of the supposedly slain children. This strikes me so reminiscent of that. |
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@L_S There’s a key difference between the Catholic church’s sexual abuse scandal and the story in this thread. The victims in the former were still alive at the time the allegations were brought and could tell their stories to the media and give testimony in court. This seems to be far less the case with indigenous children who attended those Catholic schools. I think there was also far more of a gap in time between the actions and the allegations in the case of the schools. |
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Jon Yep. There are many unsolved crimes. The need to demonstrate proof ensures that YOU are not put into an electric chair simply because we can't have any untidy unsolved crimes on our books. Do you want 'resolution' or do you want the truth? Racism? I'm not saying that THIS SORT OF THING didn't happen. Obviously it did, because there are cases where it has been irrefutably proven. But that's not the question. The question is "Is THIS another case of the same type?" <We know it exist!> This is the same logical fallacy as saying "Some black Americans have raped white girls. The accused is a black American; therefore he has raped a white girl!" You keep drifting back to generalities that might or might not be relevant to this specific case. |
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@L_S 15:14 No human remains were found. Repeat after me. No human remains were found. |
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jonheck 14-Mar-25, 00:40 |
bobspringett |
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My opinion and a little off topic Every human being on this planet is subject to the the survival mechanism called "biases" they have along with pareidolia. Biases have Been fused with the subconscious mind for many thousands of years. They are a survival mechanism and have served us well in that function. As survival becomes less of an issue they manifest in other ways. And everyone has them to some extent. That is one of the many reasons that we are to keep our thoughts captive. And it's also why some people ignore the truth even when there is physical evidence. This statement isn't meant to be for or against thee topics of conversation in this thread. I haven't looked into any of it. It's just a general statement. If it helps that's great. If it doesn't forget I said anything. |
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I still remember when I first posted in the forum years ago – I had just read a couple of books critical of the theory of molecules-to-man evolution so I asked what evidence supported the theory. It didn’t take long for the insults to fly. I remember being surprised at the level of hostility but I came to realize molecules-to-man evolution is much more than a theory to a lot of evolutionists. I think it’s their worldview and provides answers to life’s “big questions” without the need for God. |
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Over 4000 Children Died We may easily imagine a caretaker’s responsibility included digging a handful of graves each fall before the ground froze. These could double for compost, though there was likely little of that given the privation conditions suffered by most of these children. While we agree there would be no “mass graves” (associated with group executions), it would not be unheard of for a body to be covered shallow in a deep grave so that another body could be buried above it. I freely concede we have not discovered this, but we have also not conducted extensive searches. Two sites were explored, and a third only barely examined. Now, why was the ground disturbed in these outlying areas? Compost pits for winter use (hard to bury scraps in winter) would be adjacent to garden plots. While someone might bury chickens or even pets (doubtful these schools kept more than a few feral cats for controlling mice) near a garden, they wouldn’t put child carcasses there. Remains exposed to surface elements do not survive long. Solar UV degrades bone fairly rapidly, while fall and spring frost cycles contribute to rapid mechanical weathering. The first year after a deer or cow dies the hide remains in recognizable condition, but after two or three years little remains beyond fur and bones. Five years on the rib cage no longer extends above the soil, it is all in contact with the ground. Ten years out and hip, leg, spine, and skull remain recognizable, though rarely fully articulated. Generally pieces are scattered, and unless protected by heavy brush or north facing rock, are pretty fully disintegrated within twenty years. Teeth tend to last the longest, which is one reason shark tooth fossils are common. Fossilization, of course, is very different from typical unboxed grave environments. From Wiki: Over 4,000 students died while attending Canadian residential school.[5] Students' bodies were often buried in school cemeteries to keep costs as low as possible.[6] Comparatively few cemeteries associated with residential schools are explicitly referenced in surviving documents, but the age and duration of the schools suggests that most had a cemetery associated with them.[7] Many cemeteries were unregistered, and as such the locations of many burial sites and names of residential school children have been lost.[8] As of September 2024, no bodies have been exhumed from the suspected gravesites, largely due to a lack community consensus on whether to investigate detected anomalies at the risk of disturbing burials.[9] As of January 2024, at least three official excavations had been performed with no bodies discovered, though at least one excavation only investigated some of the reported ground anomalies. Not to beat a dead deer or cow—but I HAVE noticed horse remains near a popular hiking trail I walked every other year as a teenager, noting the gradual dispersal of the remains—but the deaths were documented, as is the fact SOME of the schools sported cemeteries (and most likely all of them—just as the Irish laundry orphanages of the same era), and the families of the deceased rarely received so much as notification of the departures, much less their remains, only one logical conclusion is left. As Spock notes, once you have eliminated every other possibility… And in summary, as Bob notes, anonymous graves are the least of the insults dealt the tribes. The graves are merely symbolic of the cultural genocide waged against the indigenous population, a war still being waged with antics as cruel and obnoxious as renaming Denali or the Gulf of SpaceX Debris and stealing the Federal Indian Trust funds. stateline.org |
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As far as how long bones last, it seems counterproductive to use fossils as evidence for molecules-to-man evolution and then say bones from the 1800s and first half of the 1900s would no longer exist. From Wiki… <<A fossil is a preserved trace, impression, or remnant of a once-living organism from a past geological age. Fossils are usually more than 10,000 years old and can include bones, shells, exoskeletons, petrified wood, hair, coal, oil, and DNA remnants. They can also be stone imprints of animals or microbes, or objects preserved in amber. Fossils are the primary source of information about Earth's history of life.>> I’m really not interested in continuing to discuss this, but congratulations on getting through a post without insulting President Trump. |
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Holmes, Not Spock No s*, Sherlock! I do apologize for failing to insult Groper in my previous post. Not sure how I let that slip past me, though I obliquely referenced the idiot in mentioning Denali and the equally brain dead Gulf ignorance. And the link to DOGE’s war on the BIA. We know Groper hates native Americans almost as much as he loathes Latino Americans. Only mildly surprised he hasn’t issued an edict declaring Mexico “Verminland.” He DID order the DOD to draft Panama invasion plans. So nice the “peace” dictator isn’t waging senseless economic war on Canada (home of vast indigenous school grave yards) and threatening annexation of “Red, White, and Blue Land.” |
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The reason I was focused on the unmarked graves is that’s indicative of a level of callousness and neglect that could easily carry over into how they were treated when they were alive. I don’t dispute the schools were a bad idea and that the children likely were treated poorly, though without examples of what they went through, it’s hard to go by anything other than the purpose of the schools and a gut feeling. |
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Thanks Quote Gemini: In summer 2014, reports that a 'septic tank grave' containing the skeletal remains of '800 babies' had been discovered within the grounds of former home for 'unmarried mothers' in Tuam, County Galway, featured prominently as an international news 'story' (O'Reilly, 2014). www.theguardian.com So to their credit no one is claiming indigenous child corpses were pitched into latrines. But there isn’t really much mystery in this—the radar plots are sized and spaced as we would expect for grave plots. We have testimony markers were removed. The missing children were unlikely victims of alien abductions, though the anal probes were no doubt frequently administered. They probably were not dropped by cargo plane into the ocean, as happened to many Guatemalans. They weren’t immolates in Nazi style ovens. They weren’t eaten by she bears, like the famous 42 boys mocking the old bald priest. “Get up, ye old bald head!” Being mauled by she bears seems highly appropriate for such mild insults. So glad I am Groper isn’t a priest, or she bears would be hunting me down like hungry blood hounds accustomed to rendering recalcitrant slaves, MAGA. They didn’t wink out of existence like virtual particles. While we haven’t eliminated all impossibilities, what’s left isn’t even remotely improbable. |
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Catholics "Colonizing indigenous land and constructing walls, both figurative and literal, to win public influence and political power is not a new story in American Catholic history. Many white Catholics of the Reconstruction Era and Gilded Age depicted Native Americans in racist, infantilized ways. Historian Carol Berg argues that even when they had “the best of intentions, most missionaries failed to respect Indian culture for its own worth.” They denigrated indigenous cultures in attempts to fuse Catholicism and Americanism at a time when Catholics were frequently considered inherently un-American. They then used this colonizing experience to help spread the American empire beyond the country’s borders at the turn of the 20th century. President Ulysses S. Grant’s description of indigenous people in his 1869 State of the Union message to Congress as “wards of the nation” represented a view shared by many white Catholics and Protestants. One Benedictine priest used identical language in 1893, describing “the Indian”’ as “a spoiled child” and characterizing Native Americans as “the wards of the Nation, like overgrown children and minors.” It was up to white Americans, the priest argued, to pull indigenous people out of their “filth and ignorance.” Amazingly, he used these descriptors in the context of defending Native Americans from abuses perpetrated against them by the federal government and white settlers." archive.ph |
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You can obviously believe whatever you want, but to smear Christianity on the basis of bad actions by the Catholic bureaucracy is totally unwarranted. |
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I was referring specifically to subverting their culture and identities and forcing them to conform to another culture and identity. I don’t know the extent of mistreatment beyond that. On the rest of your post, the Guardian story is obviously horrific and inexcusable (if true) and what you don’t have and can’t cite with the unmarked graves allegation is physical evidence. |
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Physical Evidence If we actually looked for and found bones we could then insist white settlers buried their children near orphanages, that the bones didn’t settle any question. And on the off chance we could acquire DNA confirming the racial ancestry of the bones, we could then insist Indians simply snuck not school grounds to bury dead offspring—there is no evidence demonstrating the bones were buried by school staff or their knowledge, despite documents indicating that. |
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Do you have a source for this? What did the “anomalies” turn out to be? <<Why this evidence, combined with the documented fact 4000 deaths are recorded (and estimates of 6000 to 12,000 are perfectly reasonable, with the upper bound at 30,000)…>> The deaths of children are obviously tragic but to lay that at the doorstep of the Catholic church seems very speculative and irresponsible. Your second paragraph is just trolling, which is why I generally avoid getting into conversations with you. |
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Agreed <<I was referring specifically to subverting their culture and identities and forcing them to conform to another culture and identity.>> Yes, that is the worse crime. When George Wright murdered Chief Qualchan, the reason the chief wept wasn’t because he feared death but because he recognized his culture was being erased. Wright’s slaughter of the horses revealed the general placed no value on the horse culture the tribes had adopted over the course of the prior two centuries. They tried hanging Qualchan a couple of times, the origin of the name “Hangman Creek,” but the rope kept breaking thanks to curses by Qualchan’s wife, Whistalk. George Wright Boulevard that passes by SFCC has been renamed “Whistalk’s Way” in her honor. So instead of hanging the chieftain they simply took the rope remains and strangled him with it against the hanging post. All the while Whistalks defiantly screamed ritualistic curses against them and their descendants. |
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Religious Affiliation At its height around 1930, the residential school system totalled 80 institutions. The Roman Catholic Church operated three-fifths of the schools, the Anglican Church one-quarter and the United and Presbyterian Churches the remainder. (Before 1925, the Methodist Church also operated residential schools; however, when the United Church of Canada was formed in 1925, most of the Presbyterian and all the Methodist schools became United Church schools.) So while the majority (nearly 60%) were the dominant Christian faith, non Catholic (lesser Christian) faiths made up most of the rest. I believe a few (maybe 1 to 3) schools were secular. Anglicans and Presbyterians were not known for pitching infant carcasses into septic tanks, or for interring student bodies on boarding school grounds. We may speculate some 20 to 30% of student deaths occurred on non Catholic grounds. Some portion of Catholic donations flow to Rome, whereas the other denominations tended to use funds more locally. Tithing was fairly common among the denominations. I certainly do not mean to malign Catholics. Sisters of Charity are noted for financing and building clinics and hospitals all across North America, where the poor often received treatment at substantially reduced (or free) cost. In recent years many of these hospitals (outside Canada) have fallen prey to for profit business consortiums. This is why so many hospitals are named for Catholic Saints. |
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Ground Penetrating Radar and GNSS This evidence matched oral accounts passed down through generations. So people said there were bodies buried on school grounds, often witnessed by the children themselves, and the GPR bolstered this. I think we still agree: Children were forced from their homes and stripped of their culture. The schools suppressed and often banned Indigenous languages, religion, and dress. These tactics were key in the compulsory assimilation of Indigenous communities. While reports of abuse, neglect, disappearances, and deaths of children had long been known and passed on within Indigenous oral history, these facts were largely ignored by mainstream media until recent movements to scientifically uncover the truth. End quote. Thus began a collective quest to amplify the stories that had been silenced for years — stories of children disappearing and never coming home. Stories of students being woken up in the middle of the night to dig their classmates’ graves. Stories that, for decades, Indigenous people were told to forget. “It is important to note that remote sensing, such as GPR, is not necessary to know that children went missing in the Indian Residential School context,” Beaulieu said in the press conference. “This fact has been recognized by Indigenous communities for generations.” So the Indians told the archaeologists where to look, and what was found was consistent with other burial sites. I think you’ll find this link highly informative. eos-gnss.com We know from the Poltergeist movies what happens when ancient Indian burial mounds are interfered with. |
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Errata The quotes aren’t in sequence, but you’ll recognize them from the link. Penultimately: In recent years many of these hospitals (outside Canada) have fallen prey to for profit business consortiums. This is why so many hospitals are named for Catholic Saints. These two sentences should be switched. The hospitals were named after saints before profiteers thought to turn a buck off the misfortune of others. Canada doesn’t suffer this problem, but like every other industrial nation offers better health care for far less cost than is typically available to the poor and middle class in the US. |
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Lord Shiva |
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