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lord_shiva 14-Mar-25, 17:15	My Bad I was not trying to argue it was primarily the Catholic Church, only that the recent church history was consistent with such practices. << The deaths of children are obviously tragic but to lay that at the doorstep of the Catholic church seems very speculative and irresponsible.>>. Andrew In fact, I expected to show LESS than half the abuse was the fault of Catholics, as I assumed maybe a quarter of the schools were run under their auspices. I was disappointed to find otherwise, as historically (at least the last half century) Catholics have better defended the oppressed. It is why Groper wants ICE to raid churches, historically sanctuaries for the afflicted. Possibly this was atonement for much earlier abuses, the inquisition, burning Bruno at the stake, kicking the Moors and Jews out of Iberia, and their WWII holocaust record wasn’t all that great. But during the Reagan years we trained the Contra Rebels tactics on raping and murdering nuns over helping the peasants, and priests were recognized for helping immigrants and others.
apatzer 14-Mar-25, 18:14	I think anyone who perpetuates a crime especially one of that magnitude, Need to be exposed and prosecuted and amends need to be made in any way that can be. My thing is, abusers look for ways to get closer to their victims. it is a human defect not a christian defect. If I receive instructions for my new blender that say do not submerge in the bathtub when plugged in. and I do it and almost die. or worse do it to someone else and they do die. is it the manufacturer's fault??? Or the person who didn't follow instructions? I get that some people are very angry with religion and they have done things to get angry about no doubt. However Jesus isn't about religion, Jesus is about relationships. and Just because a person calls themself a christian doesn't mean that they are.
apatzer 14-Mar-25, 22:16	Anyone who hurts another person intentionally in the name of God. Doesn't know God.
lord_shiva 14-Mar-25, 22:20	Jesus I don’t feel the need to drag Jesus into this. I do understand each of these major faiths revere him as their primary icon. As a model worthy of emulation, they certainly fell short in cultural genocide (which it sounds like we’re in general agreement is the primary crime here). Andrew hints the goal is reparations for the indigenous people, like the remedy paid to Japanese internment camp victims, and perhaps the whole thing is a hoax to tweak funds out of the Canadian government, or serve as the basis for lawsuits against churches. I’m not particularly interested in remedies. Let the Canadian government hammer out what is fair and just, and count on the tribes getting screwed however the chips fall. As Groper would say, they haven’t got any cards.
jonheck 14-Mar-25, 22:55	Deleted by jonheck on 15-Mar-25, 00:35.
lord_shiva 14-Mar-25, 23:17	60% Well, that was the value determined by counting the ratios at one specific point in time, but it probably held relatively constant. Now that I know the number it is easy to guess it must be 60%, but I would just have guessed a smaller number. Gemini offers: In Canada, approximately 29.9% of the population, or 10.9 million people, identify as Catholic, making it the largest Christian denomination. So I believe I had been leaning towards 25%, or close to 30%. Not double that. Though I admit I didn’t know the Catholic percentage of Canada. Must be all those French Canadians? Gemini: Approximately 19% of U.S. Christians identify as Catholic, according to recent Pew Research Center data. I figured it would be lower here. Even 20% just seems a bit high, given the number of denominations all together.
jonheck 14-Mar-25, 23:25	Deleted by jonheck on 15-Mar-25, 00:35.
victoriasas 15-Mar-25, 01:34	<<Andrew hints the goal is reparations for the indigenous people, like the remedy paid to Japanese internment camp victims, and perhaps the whole thing is a hoax to tweak funds out of the Canadian government, or serve as the basis for lawsuits against churches.>> This is exactly why I no longer have any interest in conversing with you. You have an unfortunate and obnoxious habit of misrepresenting what people have said. I never said the “whole thing is a hoax” or even implied that. In fact, I specifically said more than once that my skepticism was solely on the claim that hundreds of unmarked graves of indigenous children were on the property of schools run by the Catholic church. I said the idea for the schools was wrong and that I had little doubt the children were treated poorly.
lord_shiva 15-Mar-25, 23:40	Vic 3/10 15:36 <<This is the most recent story I found. It was published 10 days ago…>> <<Canada Gives Up Trying to Prove the Mass Graves Hoax My bad, you didn’t say the whole thing was a hoax, you quoted someone else who suggested it. My error was in assuming you posted a thing you agreed with instead of something you rejected without noting any objection. When I post an article or is because I agree with it, or if I don’t I explain what is wrong with it. I shouldn’t assume everyone else does the same. Frank, for example, is famous for posting links to sources that refute his points. Now, before you accuse me if saying you did that—you said you just posted the story, not that you ever agreed with any of it. I simply drew the mistaken conclusion you DID share the view of the content you posted. 3/11 18:57 According to Canadian newspaper editors, the discovery of the so-called unmarked graves was the “news story of the year.” “So-called” makes it sound like they cast doubt on the reality of the graves too. 3/11 22:02 <<The National Review article was published 10 days ago. And I could spend hours disputing and defending sources, but I’d rather discuss evidence.>> Again, sounds like you’re defending your source, but that’s just my “misrepresentation.” 3/12 1:06 <<My sole skepticism is on the claim hundreds (if not thousands) of unmarked graves of indigenous children are at the schools.>> Ok, you didn’t say it was a hoax, only that you were skeptical any of the 4000 documented dead school children were ever interred in school property. So wouldn’t strong skepticism imply a person regarded the claim as a hoax, perhaps to get money? 3/13 14:27 <<Why would a claim of thousands of unmarked graves of indigenous children on school properties be made? Call me a cynic, but this paragraph from further down the New York Post story may provide an answer…>> <<<<Within days of the Kamloops announcement, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau decreed, partly at the request of tribal leaders, that all flags on federal buildings fly at half-staff. The Canadian government and provincial authorities pledged about $320 million to fund more research and in December pledged another $40 billion involving First Nations child-welfare claim settlements that partially compensate some residential school attendees.>>>> <<Saying indigenous children were treated poorly, even abused, at those schools (which is obviously much more believable) doesn’t create a media firestorm the way unmarked graves of children does. And you need a media firestorm to get governments and the Catholic church to pay money.>> Ok, here is where I get confused about misrepresenting you. They hoax up mass graves to extort money, but it wasn’t really a hoax—you never remotely implied unmarked graves were just a scam, it’s all vain “idiocy” from my “syphilis ravaged brain…”
bobspringett 29-May-25, 05:07	Unless someone objects, I intend to close this thread in a few days.
lord_shiva 06-Jun-25, 09:59	Happy I’m glad this thread is not deleted. I wish we could have gotten a response from Vic to it, because I was really curious why he disagreed the graves were a hoax after citi g an article dismissing the graves as a hoax.
bobspringett 06-Jun-25, 15:25	Shiva 09:59 Far be it from me to speak for Vic! He would probably denounce me as a liar even if I cut-and-pasted one of his own posts from a year ago. But there are some people who are expert at double-think. The common or garden variety of this breed will gladly accept the doctrine that "All crows are Black", and then greet as their Beloved Leader someone who claims to be the Great White Crow. In fact, I can think of a prime example that likes to play golf in Florida, a notorious liar, fraud and adulterer who allows his followers to proclaim him to be on a mission from a holy God. I have also had members of a certain well-known Club on this site tell me that the Second Amendment is absolute. That ANY restrictions on gun possession are contrary to the Constitution. When I pointed out that this logically entitles inmates of prisons to possess field artillery capable of destroying their prison walls, I was then accused of supporting convicted criminals being given guns! Logic is too hard for some. But not all are so glib. Some might recognise the logical impossibility of the Great White Crow being simultaneously purest white and also being able to identify with all black crows. Such more mentally agile among the Elect are able to proclaim it as a paradox, the "Great Mystery" that only the eye of faith can discern. So perhaps you totally misunderstood that article Vic cited. It might have SEEMED to debunk the allegations, but if you had read it with the eyes of understanding (like Vic does), you would have been convinced.
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