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bobspringett 19-Jun-25, 03:40	Riaan 02:39 I don't dispute what you say, my friend. I agree with you! The intent of my 21:20 post was to warn that this same corruption is creeping into the United States. I don't want that to happen. Gun restrictions, etc are not my main point. Switzerland and Sweden have an even higher proportion of gun owners than the United States, so in this sense guns in themselves are not a problem. New Zealand also had very open access to guns until the Christchurch massacre, and even now are much less restrictive than Europe. To that extent I can agree with Thumper; that 'decent, law-abiding citizens' should not be unreasonably restricted. The question is what is 'unreasonable', because even the NRA agrees that not EVERY American citizen should have unhindered access to any and all firearms. The problem is guns in the hands of people who don't have an ungrained culture of responsible use, and a lack of laws to ensure that unsuitable people don't have easy access to weapons with no reasonable purpose such as hunting; guns designed only for killing as many people as possible as quickly as possible. Isn't that what assault rifles are? From what you say, the laws in place in South Africa are draconian but I can understand why. The more difficult step is to enforce them. The beauty of gun restrictions is that anyone with a gun he shouldn't have can be picked up for 'possession' rather than waiting for him to use it for murder. But that requires the second step in the process; enforcement without fear or favour.
riaannieman 19-Jun-25, 04:20	Yes, Sir, I agree and I understood your post as such. There is one thing you miss, though. In South Africa, criminals have no fear of shooting at or killing police officers. The kill ratio for officers killed on duty is some of the highest in the world, and the kill ratio for officers waylaid and killed off duty as well. Furthermore, another problem is active interference by high ranking politicians- either before the arrest, at the time of investigations or during court proceedings. We cannot simply take the illegal firearms away. Coupled with that the fact that criminals are much heavier armed and with better quality weapons and ammunition. At my last shooting exercise I was issued with 125 rounds of 9 mm para ammunition- it was Russian imports from a ship in Simonstown (another shady deal widely reported in international media!) and I had quite a disproportionate number of misfires..... The number 11 comes up in my mind, but I am not sure anymore. Even 5 is a lot, according to international standards. Last thing, our landscape and the informal townships (like the well known Soweto, or Alexandra, Soshanguve, Mamelodi, GaRankuwa or Atteridgeville to name just a few close by) where formal addresses do not exist, not even street names, or any kind of numbering makes locating and pinning down a suspect almost impossible and very dangerous. I blame the Apartheid regime for that, but since 1994 the ANC has done little to rectify the situation. In our previous club I didn't object to strict processes to approve firearm licenses, and even proposed some more strict requirements that are not in place anywhere in the world, that I know of- psychometric tests for one. Also a strict denial policy for military arms in private ownership. But this thread is not about firearms, though. It is about the crisis of the leadership in the USA. And that is a huge worry for me, especially in the light of the escalation of war in the Middle East since Friday.
bobspringett 19-Jun-25, 04:29	Riaan 04:20 I recall your previous posts, at least in outline, and agreed with them then. I agree with you now. You would know better than I that in police work good intelligence is very important, and adequate resourcing. That's not easy in South Africa! But it would be much easier in the United States, if only their policing paradigm was genuinely first-world and financed accordingly. But it's not. The American system (outside the big cities) is done on a budget and with an eye more to political effectiveness than efficiency. "Law and Order" is a used as a slogan, not a policy; and they make up for poor performance by imposing harsher punishments as a deterrent rather than good public policy as a carrot. But that reflects the American psyche, which has always been more interested in solving social problems by the application of force rather that intelligence.
lord_shiva 19-Jun-25, 05:47	Solving Social Ills US Style We solve social problems via pandering to religious/political persuasions as opposed to the application of scientific methodology. Scientists are, after all, in league with Satan—look how they oppose carbon consumption benefitting climate, or evolution defying God’s special creation. We need bigger private prisons, billionaire tax cuts, and corporate subsidies—all financed by massive deficits, import taxes on our filthy poor, and the abolishment of services benefitting the indolent middle class, mega MAGAs.
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