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From	Message
stalhandske 19-Sep-22, 20:30	Thumper Do you have to use those abbreviations (NP)? They may be obvious to English-speakers, but not to all. And I think it is only very relevant for Bob to quote his books when appropriate. You frequently quote your personal achievements, too.
thumper 19-Sep-22, 20:34	Victor <Getting published isn’t easy.> I totally get that. I have a first draft book that's been on the shelf for decades now with no interest in entering the dog-eat-dog world of trying to refine it for publication. Also, you're not going to get rich by publishing a book... unless you're Obama.
victoriasas 19-Sep-22, 20:35	<<The talk of a 3D hologram is something I would like to consider on the basis of a longer and more detailed explanation than a mere assertion. But even if true, that still leaves the question of how a hologrammatic image was made in the first place.>> I think the Resurrection had something to do with it. How specifically the Resurrection created it, I wouldn’t be able to say. <<My suspicion is that there might be a bit of cherry-picking behind that claim, in which a small number of details can be presently co-incidentally as if 'reminiscent of' a hologram.>> Or maybe you and I and everyone else doesn’t know the energy associated with the Resurrection, how exactly the Resurrection happened and what effect that energy had on the burial cloth. <<If a strong case can be made, I would welcome it.>> I don’t think anyone will present it to you. I think you have to look for it if you’re interested. <<But until then, it's a bit like all those fragments of the True Cross; enough wood to build enough ships for a full-scale Battle of Trafalgar re-enactment.>> I don’t think it’s anything like that. There’s not another shroud with the Shroud of Turin’s unique features and characteristics. There’s plenty of wood around. Not so with the Shroud.
victoriasas 19-Sep-22, 20:38	@Thumpet Exactly, Former President Obama has a built-in audience, as do a lot of national politicians. Publishers will accept manuscripts from them because they know the books will sell and are usually decent quality ‘cause they’re ghost written. Not every politician is a good writer - it’s their name on the books that matters.
victoriasas 19-Sep-22, 20:39	NP means “No Problem.”
victoriasas 19-Sep-22, 20:40	Meant to write “Thumper” in subject field of 20:38 post. Apologies.
thumper 19-Sep-22, 20:40	Stål Sorry, NP means No Problem. I'll pay closer attention to the acronyms in the future. I have no problem with Bob plugging his books. As Victor points out, it's not easy to get published much less writing a good book. I was just tweeking him.
stalhandske 19-Sep-22, 20:45	<Or maybe you and I and everyone else doesn’t know the energy associated with the Resurrection, how exactly the Resurrection happened and what effect that energy had on the burial cloth.> This is the key assumption. As it seems, such 'mystics' is necessary to explain the details of the shroud. All other explanations assume fraud of some sort. To my knowledge there is no physically reliable 'normal' explanation. The problem remains, however, that age determination (to my knowledge) misses the time of Jesus' death by some 1000 years. To me that suggests fraud.
zorroloco 19-Sep-22, 20:48	On Monday, Politico reported that U.S. Supreme Court Justice Amy Coney Barrett has received a $2 million advance for her forthcoming book about how judges are not meant to bring their personal feelings into their rulings, according to three publishing industry sources.
victoriasas 19-Sep-22, 20:52	The 1988 test that dated the Shroud to the Middle Ages was apparently done using a rewoven part of the Shroud, which had to be repaired after it was damaged in a fire. More recent tests date it to the time of Jesus Christ, according to the link in the original post in this thread.
victoriasas 19-Sep-22, 20:54	<<On Monday, Politico reported that U.S. Supreme Court Justice Amy Coney Barrett has received a $2 million advance for her forthcoming book about how judges are not meant to bring their personal feelings into their rulings, according to three publishing industry sources.>> She’s got a built-in audience as well as access to cable TV shows to promote her book. The quality of the book itself is secondary,
stalhandske 19-Sep-22, 21:00	Vic <More recent tests date it to the time of Jesus Christ, according to the link in the original post in this thread. > I knew about the suggestion that earlier samples dating to the Middle Ages may have been parts of the shrous that were mended. Your info is interesting and I need to check it. Is there any scientific opposition?
victoriasas 19-Sep-22, 21:11	<<Your info is interesting and I need to check it. Is there any scientific opposition?>> I honestly don’t know. The information in the original link came up in my news feed earlier today and I thought I’d post it to get reactions. I have little doubt there’s opposition to it. When is there not opposition to anything?
stalhandske 19-Sep-22, 21:33	<I have little doubt there’s opposition to it. When is there not opposition to anything? < I said scientific opposition!
apatzer 19-Sep-22, 22:02	Bob the following is a very good (short video) they mention the 3D data at the 3 min mark and how the extrapolated it. youtu.be also... VP-8 Image Analyzer www.shroud.com Another interesting article... shroud3d.com
bobspringett 19-Sep-22, 22:03	Thumper and Vic Thumper 19:37 Thanks for asking for the titles:- 'Pope Barnabas' and 'Bones', both with Bob Springett listed as author. I'm not trying to suck money out of club members. I have said a few times that anyone who sends me an email address and a request will get back a free PDF of the book. This will be a copy of the publisher's Final Approval draft, with commercial layout and cover, etc. If you're really keen you can even get free copies of my 'Other Rome' series of four books (written under the name Tito Kithes Athano) by going to Goodreads, looking for that name as an author, and downloading each book. Or visit my website bobbook.info, but that won't give you the maps and covers. But these books were not put through the full line-editing process, so their production quality is a bit lacking. They were my learning process. Vic 20:21 <Getting published isn’t easy. Unless you already have an audience, like hosts of TV and radio shows, getting a publisher to accept a manuscript is like winning the lottery.> Absolutely correct! Agents, like any humans, work to a routine. If you don't have a dramatic opening three pages, they stop reading. Why would they read ten pages of one book when they could read three pages each of three books in that time? Not the ideal formula for spotting a book that isn't a slavish copy of every other formulaic book out there. Most new authors have to either have connections or work like blazes to even get a ticket in the lottery, and being in Sydney, Australia (on the opposite side of the world from the markets, book fairs and publishers) doesn't help. I also grew weary of the number of agents that tell me they want 'new voices', but reject anything that doesn't sound just like last year's best sellers. And again, I can't blame them. Their formula works, it gets them a reliable stream of profits without risk, so why not stick to it? It's interesting that most of the 'revolutionary classics', like 'Dune', 'Harry Potter', etc were knocked back repeatedly by agents. Not that I'm claiming that quality, but using those to indicate how risk-averse agents can be. Vic 20:26 <Do we look at the imprint before or after we’re resurrected?> I'm not sure what you mean by this. My point was that if the cloth was wrapped around the face, then the imprints would be as far apart as the features as measured around the surface of the face; NOT as they would appear on a projection onto a flat surface as in a photograph. The face on the Shroud has the ears as far apart as they would appear on a photograph, the distance measured THROUGH the head, not around the surface. I don't see how the Resurrection would change that.
bobspringett 19-Sep-22, 22:05	Apatzer 22:02 Thanks for the links. I'll go through them.
thumper 19-Sep-22, 22:23	Bob <I'm not sure what you mean by this. My point was that if the cloth was wrapped around the face, then the imprints would be as far apart as the features as measured around the surface of the face; NOT as they would appear on a projection onto a flat surface as in a photograph.> Spoken like a structural engineer... says the aerospace engineer inspector.
thumper 19-Sep-22, 22:28	Bob I generally don't go for fantasy/fiction and lean more toward non-fiction but may give them a go if they're not too irritating.
bobspringett 19-Sep-22, 22:51	Thumper 22:28 My books are certainly not 'fantasy'. The 'Other Rome' series is written under the maintained conceit that Athano is a Professor of History from a parallel universe, writing a popular account of his history in much the same way that Colleen McCullough did her 'Masters of Rome' series (and she was much too respectful of Caesar!) 'Pope Barnabas' is fiction, in the same style as Morris West's 'Shoes of the Fisherman'. 'Bones' is also fiction, but totally 'this-world'. Think of any contemporary novel, just set fifteen years into the future. The sci-fi books are 'hard' sci-fi, meaning they respect all the Laws of Physics as currently understood. No 'Beam me up, Scottie!' or Warp Factors or dilithium crystals involved. The sci-fi setting is employed purely to examine a few key concepts without being distracted by irrelevant considerations that a setting on Earth would demand. I hope all of them are entertaining in their own genres, but primarily meant to make the reader think. Drop me a PM with an email address, and tell me which you want to me to send you.
thumper 19-Sep-22, 23:19	Bob I don't use or even have email. I do have internet access, obviously, so will look them for review and maybe buy one to see how you write.
apatzer 20-Sep-22, 05:12	For Zorro's consideration There has been writing found on the shroud and translated. It is a type of 1st century death certificate that was commonly used during that time. They believe that the ink used contained metals and that is why faint traces remain. Please read for me. It is worth your time. A very informative article phys.org My submission of the Hungarian manuscript that dates to the 1100's shows that the carbon dating can't possibly be accurate. The process accurately determined the age of a repaired section of cloth (French re-weaving) that was performed around 1200-1300's. There are visage references to the shroud that predates the Hungarian manuscript. Although a chain of custody is difficult to determine. The following is supposition of the most likely scenario based on the information available. 1. The shroud is fake 2. The shroud is real but not of Jesus 3. The shroud is the burial cloth of Jesus The writing on the shroud along with the biblical testimony of multiple persons as well as scientific testing. Point to the fact that the shroud is authentic. It matches forensically to the testimony. So let's say the shroud is not from jesus, but from a crucified man of that time. Jewish customs and law dictates that the clothes of the decreased are to be burned. Let alone a burial cloth. Why would any Jew save such an article? Well you might think, because the person who saved it loved the executed person. Valid point! That would explain why it would be saved for only 20-50 years. So why would the next person save it and store it away? And the next person and the next person? What would give the shroud such significance that a Jew would break the law and tradition of the time? Why save it? Are there any examples of ANY other burial cloth from the time of Jesus being stored away? Give me any example. Even if Jesus was just a good man and teacher. No one would save a burial cloth for such a lengthy amount of time. No matter how good he was. Now if that man performed miracles and rose from the dead. That event would definitely be enough to make someone save a burial cloth and risk excommunication from the Jewish community. Because the authority of that man would have been proven greater than the authority of the Jewish elders and council. If you have a more probable scenario I'm all ears.
zorroloco 20-Sep-22, 05:28	Patz “Even if Jesus was just a good man and teacher. No one would save a burial cloth for such a lengthy amount of time. No matter how good he was. Now if that man performed miracles and rose from the dead.” Or if the story was that he performed miracles. So much supposition
apatzer 20-Sep-22, 06:14	Zorro That is a very valid point. I did say it was supposition based on the most probable scenario. The person who collected the burial cloth in all probabilities had to be very close to the deceased. Not just know of them. They had to have be close. A person close to Jesus at that time would know the truth don't you think? Custom and law dictated that the body of the executed was to be buried for a period of 1 year. Then the family could collect the remains to be placed into an ossuary for a proper Jewish burial. The account was that Joseph of Arimathea who was a member of the council (Sanhedrin) donated a Tomb. All of life including science has large degrees of suppositions. When suppositions are tied to available data, evidence and testimony. Such suppositions are substantive in nature and therefore valid. Until contradicted by new information. Then a new idea must be formulated that is in line with the EVIDENCE. Otherwise any progress in any field would move at a snail's pace if at all.
apatzer 20-Sep-22, 06:17	Zorro In your opinion based on the information provided. What is your idea of the most likely scenario? Not you best guess or best idea. But derived from the information available.
zorroloco 20-Sep-22, 06:24	Patz Sure. As I’ve said, I seriously doubt it was Jesus burial shroud. But it could be. As long as were talking about things that are possible, your points are valid. As soon as we ‘suppose’ resurrection from the dead, we’ve lost touch with reality.
zorroloco 20-Sep-22, 06:27	Patz I don’t have an explanation
zorroloco 20-Sep-22, 06:30	But if I were to guess I’d guess it was a forgery from the 12 century. The controversy is the result of true believers muddying the waters
apatzer 20-Sep-22, 06:53	Zorro Very valid guess. Do you have any supporting evidence that backs up that conclusion? I respect your opinion and would like to consider any evidence that you have as truth is more important to me than being right.
zorroloco 20-Sep-22, 07:02	Patz 1) Radiocarbon: A fairly long and detailed look at radiocarbon reached this conclusion. Read the study… The results of radiocarbon measurements at Arizona, Oxford and Zurich yield a calibrated calendar age range with at least 95% confidence for the linen of the Shroud of Turin of AD 1260 - 1390 (rounded down/up to nearest 10 yr). These results therefore provide conclusive evidence that the linen of the Shroud of Turin is mediaeval. www.shroud.com 2) The herringbone weave appears to be unknown in Jesus’s time. There are NO other examples of this weave from his location and tine. 3) First mention of it as a relic was from after 1000 ce.
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