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From	Message
victoriasas 19-Sep-22, 10:09	Shroud of Turin Any thoughts on this? Can the Shroud of Turin be considered physical and scientific evidence (not proof) of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ? threadreaderapp.com <<Note what I wrote are questions and not statements.>>
thumper 19-Sep-22, 11:54	Victor I've heard it both ways. I'm still skeptical but am open to possibilities.
zorroloco 19-Sep-22, 12:12	No it can’t There’s obviously no piece of material that gives evidence of resurrection. How would that even work?
apatzer 19-Sep-22, 12:29	Zorroloco I offer you the 1978 scientific studies on the shroud performed by STURP. www.shroud.com New peer reviewed scientific data on the date of the shroud. Performed by a well respected scientific source. youtu.be It would appear that not considering any evidence that contradicts ones preconceived conclusions is a very human phenomenon. A group of scientists could not explain or reproduce the image and there is a lot of scientific data on the subject.
victoriasas 19-Sep-22, 12:35	Obviously? How was the image on the Shroud made? Why apparently can’t it be duplicated? From the link: <<One interesting thing: the Shroud can be converted to a 100% anatomically correct 3D hologram. No "reproductions" can do something even barely similar, all are distorted.>> I’ll post other stuff on this later. I just saw the thread I posted a link to today.
victoriasas 19-Sep-22, 12:37	Thanks for that post, apatzer. I didn’t see it before I posted my latest and will check out those links you posted tonight.
zorroloco 19-Sep-22, 12:37	Andrew In your own words, what is it about the shroud that you think is evidence for resurrection from the dead? I've look at loads of info on this and seen nothing remotely indicating that your man rose from the dead after the Romans killed him
zorroloco 19-Sep-22, 12:41	at best It appears to be from a man who was whipped and crucified Romans....which gives us an applicant pool of between 20,000-100,000. And he appears to have been of N African or middle easetern descent.
apatzer 19-Sep-22, 12:43	Zorroloco Keep in mind. When a geologist finds trinitite glass, quasicrystal and shocked quartz. They can conclude that a nuclear bomb was detonated or an asteroid strike occurred. Even though they didn't witness it and no matter the amount of time that has passed since the event. We do not know the science behind or even the possibility of resurrection however I have concluded that the image on the shroud was produced by that event. It is up to science to determine how the image was produced. Science is working on it (since) 1978. The image has 3 dimensional information imbedded in it. It wasn't produced by any dye, pigment or burning and is only a couple of microns deep. One hair on your head is 20 microns thick. The image is also in the negative. It is a very mysterious object.
apatzer 19-Sep-22, 12:45	Actually The sample pool is much larger than 20,000 - 100,000. But when you narrow it down using details and testimony the sample pool matches just 1 account.
zorroloco 19-Sep-22, 13:03	Patz Lay it out for me. How is it pegged to a guy whose genetics we don’t know? And even if it was from him, the best evidence I’ve seen that it supports resurrection is ‘we don’t understand what happened.’ Pretty weak case
zorroloco 19-Sep-22, 13:07	Andrew Same questions. How do you know it was from Jesus and how does it support resurrection - so far you’ve told me 4 times we don’t understand. That’s extremely unconvincing to anyone with an open mind
victoriasas 19-Sep-22, 13:40	@zorroloco I haven’t read about the Shroud in a long time but this info I saw today likely will make me revisit it. <<How do you know it was from Jesus>> Where did I say it was? I don’t know one way or the other. <<and how does it support resurrection>> Because no one can reproduce the image or say how the image was created and because - doing this from memory - the intense energy associated with the Resurrection is presumably how the image was created according to Shroud believers. << - so far you’ve told me 4 times we don’t understand. That’s extremely unconvincing to anyone with an open mind.>> I don’t have all the answers. If I’m interested enough, I’ll look into how the energy associated with the Resurrection manifested itself and how strong it was. Jesus Christ was the first to be Resurrected. The three people he raised from the dead as recorded in the Gospels were raised from the dead in their original bodies. Jesus Christ was Resurrected in a brand-new body, though it bore the wounds of His crucifixion. The Apostle Paul indicated believers will likewise receive brand-new bodies when they are resurrected from the dead because he wrote the mortal will put on immortality.
victoriasas 19-Sep-22, 13:42	@zorroloco <<Pretty weak case>> And you think you have an open mind?
zorroloco 19-Sep-22, 13:55	Andrew “Because no one can reproduce the image or say how the image was created and because the intense energy associated with the Resurrection is presumably how the image was created” it is evidence of a man rising from the dead?!?! An open mind isn’t the same as one that just accepts anything. I require more evidence for a resurrection than ‘we don’t understand and can’t recreate.’
zorroloco 19-Sep-22, 14:13	Keep in mind I agree there’s some odd unexplained characteristics of the shroud. I accept the slight possibility it was Jesus’ burial shroud. Most likely though it was created around 13-14 century when it was first mentioned (1354). This is supported by carbon dating AND analysis of the art. And the type of weave (herringbone) doesn’t appear in Jesus’ time in the Middle East How likely is it a piece if cloth survived 1300 years as a sacred relic with no mention? And not a single bit of evidence supporting resurrection!
apatzer 19-Sep-22, 14:28	Zorroloco We don't understand what goes on at the inner event horizon of a black hole either. What we do is try to understand it by examining the things we can understand and asking the right questions. We go over the available evidence and test it against the most likely explanation. I do not look for explanations. I examine the available evidence and that evidence takes me to a conclusion. Other than the Bible there are historians of that time who made mention of the resurrection. realfaith.com As for how it is pegged to Jesus. The Gospel account of the scourging , the crown of thorns , the spear to the side. All wounds show up forensically on the shroud and match the account given. Even the dumbbell shaped scourge marks are linked to 1st century roman technology. His nail wounds are in the wrist not the palms, they would have had to do that to support his weight. Yet every Christian source shows it through the palms. and those sources are wrong. there is a lot more but I do not want to over burden you.
apatzer 19-Sep-22, 14:31	Zorroloco Allow me to present to you evidence that your 13-14 century conclusion is incorrect. theshroudofturin.blogspot.com There is a depiction of the shroud in a manuscript... Hungarian Pray Manuscript or Pray Codex (1192-1195) that predates your dates by hundreds of years.
apatzer 19-Sep-22, 14:32	here is more evidence that contradicts your dates. www.mdpi.com
victoriasas 19-Sep-22, 14:36	Thanks for those posts, apatzer
apatzer 19-Sep-22, 15:26	victoriasas You are welcome. I love sharing things that are true. I think Zorro also needs to understand that neither you nor I (NEED) the shroud of Turin to be authentic) Our faith is independent from outside sources and is based on personal experience that is unique to us as individuals. What I find very fascinating is that science can neither prove nor disprove by any of the studies that have been done. They can not prove it authentic nor can they prove it a fake. If it was fake however it would have been easily proven! Name one object that is fake that can not be proven to be fake. Or one object that is authentic that can not be proven to be authentic? We end up with more questions than answers. Which is a beautiful thing and allows people to exercise their free will to either believe or not. We get to be at choice, just as God said. That is a beautiful thing, we are completely free to either accept or reject just as God intended. ( Not talking about the shroud here) Otherwise we would merely be slaves, no sir. We are free and those whom the Son of man sets free are free indeed. Free from worry, free from fear, free from want and free from death. I wish everyone were free, but that is not up to me.
apatzer 19-Sep-22, 15:46	One other thing. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. It is evidence of a lack of knowledge and our que to dig deeper as long as it is prudent to do so. Like that mine in Africa that sold out it's business. When the next company took over they found out that the other company gave up 6 feet short of the largest gold strike in history.
zorroloco 19-Sep-22, 17:05	Patz Interesting. I didn’t know about that mention. Still… the huge leap from 1100 ad to Jesus’s time is tenuous. But again, I admit it could be from Jesus, although I find it unlikely. But it still can’t possibly confirm the resurrection.
victoriasas 19-Sep-22, 18:17	<<Interesting. I didn’t know about that mention. Still… the huge leap from 1100 ad to Jesus’s time is tenuous.>> I thought the most recent dating put it at the time of Jesus Christ. “The average from three independent chemical and mechanical studies dates the Shroud to 33 BC (±250 years).” threadreaderapp.com <<But again, I admit it could be from Jesus, although I find it unlikely. But it still can’t possibly confirm the resurrection.>> It’s one potential piece of evidence among many pieces of evidence.
bobspringett 19-Sep-22, 18:42	I'm sceptical. Put some dye on your own ears, nose, eyebrows, jaw line, etc. Wrap a cloth around your face, as the Shroud is thought to have been placed over Jesus' face. Then look at the imprint. You will see it looks nothing like the photo-realistic image on the shroud. All parts of the imprint from your face will be seen as an image taken at right angles to the point of contact, not from directly in front or behind, as in the Shroud. The ears will be set well wide of the eyes, and the jaw line will be wider than the smile on an emoji. The talk of a 3D hologram is something I would like to consider on the basis of a longer and more detailed explanation than a mere assertion. But even if true, that still leaves the question of how a hologrammatic image was made in the first place. My suspicion is that there might be a bit of cherry-picking behind that claim, in which a small number of details can be presently co-incidentally as if 'reminiscent of' a hologram. If a strong case can be made, I would welcome it. But until then, it's a bit like all those fragments of the True Cross; enough wood to build enough ships for a full-scale Battle of Trafalgar re-enactment. Just as a side comment about 'proof of miracles'... My science-fiction trilogy is currently being laid out and cover art provided. These novels involve a race of humanoids that reaches a level of scientific sophistication comparable to 20th century Europe. Then they find indisputable archaeological evidence that the old myths about the Creator Race are actually true. Their response? It's NOT to fall on their knees in submission to the Myths; instead, they start to examine these findings scientifically. I expect that even if the Shroud is found to be genuine, and next year someone finds the Holy Grail, that won't lead to world-wide conversions; it will just mean more data for scientists to examine. We have already had it effectively proven that the Universe had a definite beginning, but that hasn't turned the world into Creationists. It's just sent Science in a new direction.
thumper 19-Sep-22, 19:02	Bob Do you ever not hawk/promote your books here?
bobspringett 19-Sep-22, 19:22	Thumper I do it only when relevant, and less often that you mention your fire-fighting and first responder work. It's part of what interests me, so I mention it as appropriate. Thanks for drawing more attention to them.
thumper 19-Sep-22, 19:37	Bob NP. I assume you need all the publicity you can get. What are the titles by the way?
victoriasas 19-Sep-22, 20:21	Getting published isn’t easy. Unless you already have an audience, like hosts of TV and radio shows, getting a publisher to accept a manuscript is like winning the lottery. My mother was a great creative writer and had a publisher accept her manuscript way back in the 1970s. But I’m pretty sure her later fiction was self published, even though it was very good. She did write non-fiction historical works that were not self-published. But I think publishers want to know a book is marketable, especially if it’s from a new writer.
victoriasas 19-Sep-22, 20:26	<<I'm sceptical.>> As you should be. <<Put some dye on your own ears, nose, eyebrows, jaw line, etc. Wrap a cloth around your face, as the Shroud is thought to have been placed over Jesus' face. Then look at the imprint.>> Do we look at the imprint before or after we’re resurrected? <<You will see it looks nothing like the photo-realistic image on the shroud. All parts of the imprint from your face will be seen as an image taken at right angles to the point of contact, not from directly in front or behind, as in the Shroud. The ears will be set well wide of the eyes, and the jaw line will be wider than the smile on an emoji.>> This is not an apples to apples comparison. You’re leaving out the Resurrection(!)
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