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obsteve 08-Mar-16, 14:17	Fourteen Defining Characteristics Of Fascism Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each: www.rense.com
zorroloco 08-Mar-16, 15:03	Yes See. That. Scary stuff in today's milieu.
chaz- 08-Mar-16, 16:05	... when I bring up the subject of fascism, I get "yeah's!" from the Left and shrugs from the Right. When I describe the symptoms, in either case, no one listens. Is both the Left and Right falling prey to this potential threat? Or, is it not a threat at all?
lord_shiva 09-Mar-16, 06:45	Rense List I don't accept all of these as defining, the first few are. The rest are generally negative, but are associated with other repressive regimes besides just fascism. All are problematic. Compare Trump's stance on these issues vs. that of Sanders or Clinton. I thought it fascinating how Cruz said of course he would torture terrorists, he just would do it with reservation. Trump insisted he would out torture Cruz, and broaden the list of folks he would happily torture, and permit a greater range of barbarism in technique. Families would be included, in keeping with conservative family values, God Bless America!
lord_shiva 09-Mar-16, 06:54	Threat of Fascism In this day and age? Here in America, anti fascist champion of the world? When fascism comes to America, it will be draped in a flag and packing a Bible. Got Mitt Uns. And yeah, does a rose by any other name smell as sweet? I wonder how Derr Donald polls among WWII vets. Do they recognize the trappings of his speeches, or has geriatric onset dementia eroded their cognitive faculties?
lord_shiva 09-Mar-16, 07:19	Derr Donald Would it really make that much difference if is strongest supporters referred to themselves as puce shirts, or umber shirts instead?
softaire 09-Mar-16, 07:30	OBS Thanks for an interesting topic to discuss. This is my comment concerning #1-Nationalism and #7-National Security. Although we can find references to nationalism, or the sounds of nationalism, all over the map and anywhere in time, the emergence of nationalism and recognition of nations/countries as homelands is usually associated with the Peace of Westphalia in 1648. Since then have we been more or less dedicated to the idea that nation, or country, as our home and place to protect. I don't think that makes nationalism a defining characteristic of fascism. It is a result of the desire to end wars between territories, regions, city-states, and empires. It is a desire to protect and preserve that which a location, territory, region, city(s) and empires have achieved or created. It is a desire to protect and preserve what is considered good and beneficial by a group of people from a location, territory, region, city(s) or empire. It is a natural desire to protect and preserve a method or way of life and to prevent losing it to a foreign group of people who find it easier to conquer and plunder by war or infiltration than to create their own goods and valuables.
popedonald01 09-Mar-16, 11:32	And Still More Common Sense Enforcing our laws, nationalism, allowing the police to do whatever it takes to prevent violence against our citizens, these are all considered "fascism" by the anarchists(what passes for the left these days). Yet the real potential fascists are currently in power and are constantly trying to ignore the Constitution.
thumper 09-Mar-16, 12:06	Partyman Yep
stalhandske 09-Mar-16, 12:35	<Enforcing our laws, nationalism, allowing the police to do whatever it takes to prevent violence against our citizens, these are all considered "fascism" by the anarchists(what passes for the left these days)> Complete bulls manure. Some may consider that fascism, but that's a very very small minority. Another case of gross exaggeration that leads nowhere in a discussion. Likewise I could give you examples of right wing fascism, but I won't because it is - again - the hallmark of a very small minority on the right wing side.
softaire 09-Mar-16, 12:57	Stalh I'm a little unclear (OK... a lot unclear) about what you mean here. Are you saying that enforcing the law, a sense of nationalism, and using the police to prevent violence are all fascist? That is what I get from your post. Partyman seems to be saying THAT is exactly what the Left believes. I'm unsure where you fall in that conversation. Also unclear is what LS is actually saying. He seems to be trying to link Trump with fascism and saying that the U.S.is now, or will be under a trump administration, a fascist nation. Is any of that even possibly accurate to the meaning I interpret?
stalhandske 09-Mar-16, 13:14	softaire Sorry, I must have been very unclear. <Are you saying that enforcing the law, a sense of nationalism, and using the police to prevent violence are all fascist? That is what I get from your post> That is what I quoted directly from Partyman, and what I considered bullshit, with the exception of a very small group of extremists. <Partyman seems to be saying THAT is exactly what the Left believes. I'm unsure where you fall in that conversation> I thought I clearly said that to say the Left believes this is bullshit - yes, a very very small minority does - so what?
lord_shiva 09-Mar-16, 13:41	Likud Weighs In Before I get to that, let's examine Softaire's statement regarding Westphalia in 1648. The Bible makes extensive reference to Israel. Certainly nation/states predate Westphalia by a few thousand years. Crests, flags, and symbols of kingdoms bore national identity everywhere humans used agriculture. Hunter gatherers are nomadic, but everyone else lays down (literal) roots. As for Likud's statement regarding anarchy--again he has it almost completely backwards. Who hates government interference, regulation, and accompanying taxes with passionate disdain? Clue: It ain't liberals. Liberals regard "big" government as supplying solutions to problems business cannot, or problems business creates as a matter of course. This is pretty close to the exact opposite of "government small enough to drown in the bathtub" favored by conservatives. But when lobbing anarchistic Molotov Cocktails, I suppose tainting liberals as "anarchists" must serve some useful purpose.
obsteve 09-Mar-16, 15:19	<< America, anti fascist champion of the world? >> Shiva you are kidding, right?
lord_shiva 09-Mar-16, 19:03	Derr Donald I don't need to link Derr Donald to fascism. He does just fine with that all on his little lonesome. He has quoted Mussolini favorably. Why would he do that? He has made statements about Muslims highly reminiscent of those of Derr Fuhrer. Simply substitute "Muslim" for "Jew" in Derr Donald's rantings, and the remarks speak volumes. I could go on and on with the list of "coincidences," but will refrain for now. He hasn't gassed any Jews, or Muslims, but he WOULD ban all Muslims (later modified to non citizen Muslims) from the US, thus dismantling our constitution and defecating upon its shredded remains.
lord_shiva 09-Mar-16, 19:08	Antifascist Champion F. no. Hey, who slaughtered fascists with gay abandon during WWII? We incinerated Berlin, Tokyo, Nagasaki, and Hiroshima. The latter two with awesome nuclear weaponry. Who invaded France to liberate it from the Nazis? Americans, that's who. Granted, we didn't wrack up the death toll suffered by our allies, but then--we only like dying in land wars in Asia. Who was it Derr Donald called "a loser" for getting captured over there? He prefers "heroes" who DON'T get tortured. Sorry, didn't mean to get off on Trump. But yeah, we kicked ass in Germany and Italy. Who claims otherwise?
softaire 09-Mar-16, 20:35	Stalh Thanks for your reply. It was NOT clear (to me) what you meant... hence the question. Now, I understand you to be saying the both YOU and "the Left" think his statement is BS. Correct me again if I'm wrong. I could agree with you IF all the other characteristics were also met along with these two... but if those others are NOT met, then two or three of them does NOT indicate fascism (imho). So, it boils down to "degree" and "quantity". In this case, I say you are misunderstanding the degree and quantity. If it were all more so, then you could be correct. Just not this time, in this case.
stalhandske 09-Mar-16, 21:54	softaire <<Enforcing our laws, nationalism, allowing the police to do whatever it takes to prevent violence against our citizens, these are all considered "fascism" by the anarchists(what passes for the left these days)>> That was the original statement. These may indeed all be considered "fascism" by the anarchists, if we define anarchist as a very small fraction of the ultraleft. But the poster generalised the statement to be valid for "the left these days" and THAT is what I called BS. Clear now? I hope so, especially since I am sure you agree with me.
lord_shiva 10-Mar-16, 07:00	Likud Party Is anyone dismissing all conservatives as fascist? Not even close. We are not even calling Derr Donald (one self proclaimed conservative) a fascist. Instead, we simply note many interesting similarities, such as having crowds at his rallies give Nazi style salutes. The words, trappings, and symbols of fascism are not themselves fascism. So you compulsion to engage in some curious tit-for-tat attack such as liberals is anarchists is out of place. Especially given the nature of things. The Unabomber has been described as a liberal anarchist. The vast majority of liberals disavow his anti science antics. I wish more conservatives spoke out against the anti science stance of so many conservatives. To wit, embryology is a legitimate science. Women's bodies do not have a way to shut down "legitimate" rape pregnancies. Fertilization is not implantation (aka conception). Big bang cosmology is real. (Sorry, BC). Evolution is real. Climate change is real, and has already resulted in more death and destruction than the Unabomber ever dreamed.
softaire 10-Mar-16, 07:29	LS Ok... here is one conservative that will officially say that he agrees entirely with your last post as written, even climate change. We can, have had, and will continue to argue about the details of each of those subjects (and a lot more different subjects too). The devil is in the details of course. But, especially I disagree with a lot of the non-science spouted by people on both sides of the isle as well as a reliance on religion(s) to determine legislation. The matter of natural creation for the universe or intelligent creator (for me) is still open and separate from the association with any religion. I agree with Chas in the sense we need to use common sense to move "a little" to the center from the extremes but also to preserve the rights and freedoms of the individual more and with less reliance on government that tends to become bloated bureaucracy and tyrannical in nature.
thumper 10-Mar-16, 07:38	What is wrong with having extreme views? Must my views conform to yours? Maybe to me, your views are extreme.
lord_shiva 10-Mar-16, 07:46	Westphalia I want to thank Softaire for bringing up this topic, I had never heard of Westphalia before. Have been doing a little research on it. The US (and Russia) certainly abandoned any notion of sovereign state self determination. But I can perceive its influence on European politics.
softaire 10-Mar-16, 07:57	Thumper You are certainly welcome to your own extreme views. We both have extreme views (about almost everything) to many in these clubs. For example, views that I would consider "centrist" and those views that we should move toward the center are similar to your views where you want a smaller, less intrusive government that does the things it is allowed to do by the Constitution and does NOT do those things that are not specifically allowed. You want people to be accountable for their actions, take personal responsibility for their actions, and work together to help their communities. Extreme views from the left that should move to the center are those such as: that government should guarantee an equal income for all families by taking from those that have and redistributing it to those who do not have it; that government should pick and choose winners and losers in business; that government should be allowed to create legislation based on the political donations from lobbyists; that government should force the public to use government provided education rather than open it up to the free marketplace; that government jobs are "forever" jobs; that government elites get one set of rules and the public gets another set of rules; etc. etc.
lord_shiva 10-Mar-16, 08:03	Tit for Tat I didn't bring up Westphalia just because Softaire said a nice thing in his pro science post. I had not seen his post, even though twenty minutes had elapsed. Our mutual admiration stuff was like ships passing in the night. Just saying. I type my words one character at a time on a little iPad connected via cranky satellite dish. Upload bandwidth is terrible, though download is good enough to drive an Ooma phone. Love the clarity of that, but had to cancel the service due to upstream packet loss. Half a conversation just doesn't cut it. Sometimes I am connected via a full T1 using a desktop with two enormous monitors, one of which displays three side by side 80 character screens of software code, 86 rows (and still legible to these old eyes), with a split ergonomic keyboard. I tend to get a little wordy when I can crank out text @ 120 words per second.
stalhandske 10-Mar-16, 08:21	Extreme views <Extreme views from the left that should move to the center are those such as: that government should guarantee an equal income for all families by taking from those that have and redistributing it to those who do not have it; that government should pick and choose winners and losers in business; that government should be allowed to create legislation based on the political donations from lobbyists; that government should force the public to use government provided education rather than open it up to the free marketplace; that government jobs are "forever" jobs; that government elites get one set of rules and the public gets another set of rules; etc. etc.> Those are indeed extreme views. I consider myself centrist or a little to the left (probably a lot from an American viewpoint). I strongly disagree with all of those views. I think they are the views of very few people! I think extreme views - to one side or the other - are usually bad (not always).
chaz- 10-Mar-16, 09:24	Softy ... ... just want to say that you've had a couple of very good posts here today. And, it does suggest that thinkers can come together on 'general agreements' ... and, as you say, let's see where those devil's details take us.
chaz- 10-Mar-16, 09:27	Stahlandske... ... and I find myself a bit Left of Center too ... and I also deplore the extremist Left views almost as much as I deplore the extremist Right views. Now, if we all (including Softy and LS) were members of Congress, we just might get a lot more done than all those extremist incumbents.
lord_shiva 11-Mar-16, 06:05	Top Marginal Tax Rates On the greatest generation exceeded 90%. I think I know ONE liberal among all my friends who would like to see rates return to that level. Most favor them topping out between 40% and 50%. The Ryan Plan would have changed Romney's tax rate from the current 15% up to an onerous 0.7%. Lawyers, doctors, and other actual wage earners would continue paying in excess of thirty, while rates on our hated poor would have increased to offset the much needed capital gains reduction--how the truly deserving earn their wealth. Those who have "arrived." Mostly through inheritance, to help establish a US gentry class. Poor taxes would be effected largely through service reduction. Because we do far too much to help the nasty unwashed hoi poloi. The Ryan Plan, in contrast to my single liberal commie artist friend, enjoyed fairly broad conservative support. Donald Trump said taxes on hedge fund managers should increase, because it is unfair they should get away paying half the rate of top real wage earners, whose take home runs 1% to 10% of what they make. This is about the only thing Trump has said that makes sense, which is why I now believe he probably lied, and make it a non issue upon election.
lord_shiva 11-Mar-16, 07:29	Clarification Real wage earners take home ranges from 1% to 10% of that of hedge fund managers. Net real wage earners (doctors, lawyers, the chief of police, fire marshals, etc.) pay TWICE the hedge fund manager rate.
obsteve 11-Mar-16, 09:31	Chaz you are truly one of life's great mediators, you could earn a living ths way... Are you a middle child?
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