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hennybogan1953 04-Feb-13, 11:49	DennyHenny Girl, we in Denmark have a circus monkey chip implant in our brains that make us applaud when Arab is spoken. Girl you listen to Faux News and Tea Party and are far out of touch with the real world. Christian is evil, as a matter of fact we have to call our famous writer Hans Anderson because it is illegal in Denmark to say his middle name. Put this pink ribbon in your eyes. Your wrong and it's no big surprise, don't you know exactly where you stand In Denmark they force you to hold my hand. We'll your just a girl in the world, why don't you just let me be, well your just a girl little old you, do they let you drive late at night.
rmannstaedt 04-Feb-13, 11:50	tat 1. "Normally when people are going to use my gender to degrade me, they are more subtle about it." - Well, at least I didn't call you "retarded". 2. "I was not the one who brought up Islam..." - Yes you did. Your 02-Feb-13, 11:40 post (quote): "Cut the crap. In what countries do the people speak arabic? Islamic countries." 3. "Stop talking about Christianity..." - Why? It is definitely relevant. And you are quite wrong, too: Christians do not generally believe that "God actually was on Earth as a human being in the form of Jesus". Christians believe that Christ was the Son of God, which is a rather different concept. - Read the bible again. I dare you come with a single quote which states, directly or implicitly, that God ever walked the Earth in human form. - Punishment after death: interesting you should bring that up. It's actually a relatively late interpretation, and one which you will have serious difficulties justifying by quotes from the Bible apart from the "Revelation". Far most of the quotes you will find for God punishing people will be IN this life, NOT after. - It is highly debatable whether the amount of Islamic texts dwarfs Christian texts. The Church has just outlawed most of them. You should read about the "First Council of Nicea" some time. - Thank you for agreeing that "One faith is not necessarily better or worse, but they are in fact different in subtle yet meaningful ways." However, that directly invalidates your point that "It is totally irrelevant to the comparing and contrasting of cultures today and the role of Islam in these cultures." 4. "You totally insisted that some things flat out don't happen." - Really? When? 5. "What you have said about not drawing conclusions is analogous to watching a baby get beaten while simultaneously insisting that we don't know if the person who is administering the beating is guilty..." - Your sources of information about Islam are tainted by anti-Islamic propaganda. How can you ever hope to draw any kind of fair conclusion, when you (in your own words) believe that "Absolutely nothing nice or potentially good that might exist in these cultures is acceptable or even remotely tolerable to me..." - "Brainwashed" is when you believe, absolutely and totally, what someone else tells you to believe. Thank you for using that word; I think it is a fair description of your state of mind. 6. "The corruption you have mentioned, lobbying, is done within certain parameters." - It is still corruption. 7. "It's good that you mentioned accidental death in the United States". - Nope, I didn't. I mentioned "American children being shot". Nothing accidental at all about what happened in Newtown - and all those other, all too many, school shootings. - Not to mention, rabid Americans who shoot and bomb nurses and doctors working at legal abortion clinics.
zorroloco 04-Feb-13, 11:53	<rabid Americans who shoot and bomb nurses and doctors working at legal abortion clinics.> and christianity has nothing to do with promulgating such heinous actions!
tat3225 04-Feb-13, 11:53	zorroloco You have absolutely no integrity at all.
zorroloco 04-Feb-13, 11:54	for the record the way islamic countries treat women is reprehensible. the way women get treated in the military is tragic. so what? this thread is about american kids acting in america.
zorroloco 04-Feb-13, 11:57	so what when i said 'so what,' i did not mean it is unimportant. i meant it is not realted to this thread except by those who have trouble keeping issues seperate and clear in their minds. american kids saying the pledge in america has nothing to do with how saudi arabia, or the us military, treats women. it has to do with the first amendment and it has to do with high school students becomeing engaged in the social and political process. engaging in social activism. making a point. i wonder (since no one has answered me) what tat and jd think about saying the pledge in spanish? what about french? or sign language?
tat3225 04-Feb-13, 11:58	rmannstaedt I'm glad you copped to degrading me because I am female. At least you were honest about that. What's pretty psychotic is that you chose to deliberately do it in the context that you did, and then equated it to what I said when I asked if you're retarded. It would make sense to do that if I had asked you specifically if you're retarded because you are a man. That is comparable. But I didn't. You on the other hand chose to argue against me by talking to me as though I am a "girl", even though my profile clearly states I am 31 years old. You also said that that the way I talked to you previously was bad or humorous to you because I am a girl. It really gets to the heart of why you are so defensive about cultures who think of women in the exact same way.
rmannstaedt 04-Feb-13, 12:15	tat Basically, I think that using words like "psychotic" and "retarded" about other people is far worse than calling someone a "girl" - a term slightly degrading because of the lack of age and experience implied, not because of the gender. Or would calling you a "woman" also be degrading? In my culture it isn't. On the other hand, calling someone "retarded" implies a general lack of culture and good manners - in you - which I find somewhat appalling.
zorroloco 04-Feb-13, 12:17	tat coming from you, i will accept the compliment.
tat3225 04-Feb-13, 12:35	Zorroloco Again, your integrity is lacking. Shamash reinforced the fact that Islamic countries do in fact treat women in the ways I have described as have a couple other people. Yet you're trying to separate cultures that treat half their people with disrespect or like animals from the language and culture? How is this even possible? It's like saying that South African culture was great during apartheid, while also saying you oppose racism and think its unacceptable. You cannot separate the two. It's like saying American culture is wonderful, while also saying that individual rights and freedoms are a bunch of hogwash and a terrible thing. Its so unbelievably illogical and hypocritical. It also demonstrates a complete lack of legitimate care and concern for people. If I was a person living in poverty and fear in Yemen, the last thing I would want to know is that Americans were dismissing it in order to focus on the "positive" aspects of my culture. You know, Obama said recently in a speech on holocaust remembrance day that we all must prevent horrible and oppressive regimes from ever gaining power again. There are no words for how unbelievably stupid and clueless this statement is. I'm seeing the same cluelessness and total lack of awareness for connections between things in this very thread.
tat3225 04-Feb-13, 12:36	This is seriously the most ridiculous and ignorant conversation in the entire world. If I wasn't done with this club before I certainly am now.
chaz- 04-Feb-13, 12:39	... I thought we were talking about the Pledge being given in languages other than English. I'm eager to hear how people feel about that. Why is this point being avoided?
zorroloco 04-Feb-13, 12:55	tat i said no such thing. i stated that the way islamic countries treat women is reprhensible. my issue is your willingness to take a thread about americans and transfer it to a thread about muslim countries treatment of women. that is crazy! you seem to be completely unable to keep this subject in your mind without dragging in a bunch of irrelevant issues and preconceptions. it was a good thread. until you decided to make it a statement about muslim countries, at which point, i admit, it became pretty ridiculous and ignorant.
rmannstaedt 04-Feb-13, 12:56	chaz5 My apologies, it seems tat and I completely succeeded in derailing the original thread. The original post stated: "Members in November recited the Pledge in Spanish, sparking intense debate about whether saying the words of the Pledge in any language other than English was unpatriotic." So, it seems there actually are people who think that pledging loyalty to the US is unpatriotic, if not done in English?
proginoskes 04-Feb-13, 13:01	John 1:1-18 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it. 6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God. 14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 (John testified concerning him. He cried out, saying, “This is the one I spoke about when I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”) 16 Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and[b] is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known. The Bible clearly states, and Christians believe, Jesus was God and God walked this Earth in human flesh. Perhaps there are a few people posting in thread who should actually read the Bible?
rmannstaedt 04-Feb-13, 13:12	proginoskes No, that is the Trinity - the concept of God, Son, Holy Spirit. They are apart and yet one. The quote you give also directly states: "the glory of the one and only Son, who came FROM the Father". That is, a Son which is distinct from the Father, but also part of the Trinity. For a reasonably clear explanation of this concept, try this (quoting from the link below): "The three persons are distinct, yet are one 'substance, essence or nature'. A nature is what one is, while a person is who one is." They are not the same person; they are the same nature. Detailed explanation here: en.wikipedia.org
rmannstaedt 04-Feb-13, 13:15	But... There is another point - I think I misread tat: when she spoke of God I read it as the Father in the Trinity. She may have meant the God 'nature', that is - anyone of the Trinity. So if that is the case, of course she is correct.
proginoskes 04-Feb-13, 13:24	In the beginning was the Word . . . and the Word WAS God . . . The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. Jesus was God. God walked on this Earth. "I and the Father are one" John 10:30 "Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!" John 8:58 Why were the Jews picking up stones in both occasions when Christ said this? Because he was clearly stating he was God. Though, probably my most favorite demonstration that he was God comes from the story of the paralyzed man in Mt 9: "Jesus stepped into a boat, crossed over and came to his own town. 2 Some men brought to him a paralyzed man, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the man, “Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.” 3 At this, some of the teachers of the law said to themselves, “This fellow is blaspheming!” 4 Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, “Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts? 5 Which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’? 6 But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the paralyzed man, “Get up, take your mat and go home.” 7 Then the man got up and went home. 8 When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to man." Only God may forgive sins . . . and the people still didn't get it. Jesus is not the offspring of God. He is not something separate from God. He is God. The Bible is clear about this.
rmannstaedt 04-Feb-13, 13:31	proginoskes Yes, again: this relates to the concept of the Trinity: "According to this doctrine, there is only one God in three persons." Ref.: en.wikipedia.org No, he is of the same nature as God but is a seperate person. The accepted doctrine - and the texts you quote, actually - are quite clear about this. You are confusing the nature of God with the concept of Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Each of them partakes of God; they are seperate yet one. This is a very, very old discussion, and many learned and knowledgeable people have quibbed and argued and burned (often literally) as part of this debate. Basically, this is something that we could discuss for the rest of our lives. But this is not the right thread - or even the right forum - for that.
proginoskes 04-Feb-13, 13:42	I'm not confusing any concepts at all. I understand the trinity. Jesus was God, not just a "person" with "god nature". The three parts of the trinity do all exist distinctly, all God, and probably all as a result God's nature having to interact a materialist existence. If your point was that God the Father is not God the Son, then you are correct that God the Father did not come to the Earth; however God the Son did, therefore God did come to Earth. The life, death, and resurrection of Jesus are completely meaningless outside of the context of him being God.
zorroloco 04-Feb-13, 15:09	tat <It's like saying that South African culture was great during apartheid, while also saying you oppose racism and think its unacceptable> no it is demonstrably not. it is like saying not all south africans are responsible for the crimes of apartheid. you, on the other hand, seem to be perfectly willing to paint all arabic speakers in the entire world with the brush of misogyny.. not muslim. not fundamentalist muslims. but all arabic speakers. you were very clear. this was your first post in this thread: <So, a bunch of arabs hijacked something and spewed arabic in an anti-american protest that forced arabic culture on everyone else.> " a bunch of arabs." no. it was an arab american who said it, and we have no evidence that the rest of the group was arab at all. the group said it in spanish in november. 'hijacked something.' um... no. they said the pledge of allegiance in arabic one day. 'spewed arabic.' your hate and prejudice are loud and clear in your choice of words. 'anti-american protest.' this is insane. only a ... well... a closed minded fool could ever consider saying the pledge of allegiance to be anti-american. 'forced arabic culture on everyone else.' by speaking arabic for one minute, they forced arabic culture on everyone? this entire statement is a homage to your hate, prejudice, closed-mindedness, and lack of understanding of what america stands for. your inability to differentiate an attempt by high school students to bring awareness to their peers, from muslim culture in the middle east is little short of breathtaking and says a hell of a lot more about your pathetic view of others than it does about these thoughtful and civically engaged young people. you should be deeply ashamed of yourself.
rmannstaedt 04-Feb-13, 15:13	under God... proginoskes - you will excuse me, I trust, if I do not continue this specific debate here. I am contend to let the "Trinity" debate rest - and we can take up at a later time, if you want, in one of the Bible discussion forums. But another debate about God is, I think, more interesting - and to the point, relative to the original thread: There is a statement in the pledge about "under God". Does that carry any meaning today? It was originally added - rather artificially, I think - to make a point vis-a-vis the ungodly Soviets. That is rather irrelevant today, isn't it? And does it matter at all whether we say God or Allah or something else? Isn't it the original pledge itself - to the flag, the republic, etc. - that is important? Does the actual language matter?
proginoskes 04-Feb-13, 15:37	rmann Well. There is power in words. Language. Definitions. A pledge has, or at least should have, meaning. I'm not convinced that the "under God" part of it is necessary, or perhaps even a good thing, and is clearly a stumbling block to many. For better or worse the pledge has significance and emotional connections, even if in the abstract it's not that big of a deal, I am asking is it worth it in the aggregate to change it or alter it for the purpose of making a political point.
pecosbill 04-Feb-13, 16:44	This seems so simple. You simply can't translate "God" into "Allah." They refer to two different entities. By allowing the translation you are changing the meaning of the pledge. It is OK if you believe in Allah, and if you want to live your life by his teachings. However, insofar as the "nation" is concerned he has very, very little historical significance other than being used to motivate terrorist attacks against the US.
zorroloco 04-Feb-13, 17:07	bill it seems simple because you are wrong. did you know that arabic speakers who are christians or jews both use the word 'allah' to refer to their respective gods? allah is indeed translated correctly as god, and vice versa. anyway, the god of muslims is the same god as that of the jews and christians. different prophet, same god, perceived differently. would you prohibit the jews from translating god as יהוה as well?
chaz- 04-Feb-13, 17:08	Pecos ... ... if one translates the word "God" into Arabic, it becomes "Allah." It is one concept ... that is "God." Why are you trying to make something out of this that does not exist?
proginoskes 04-Feb-13, 17:23	I disagree strongly that "Allah" is the same as the God of the Jews and Christians. Look at the history of Islam, Allah actually refers to a moon god (little "g") of the tribal people to which Muhammad belonged. Though the language followed the cultural and religious phenomenon that is Islam and as there is no allowance for any other god than Allah, it surprises me not that there is no other word in Arabic.
chaz- 04-Feb-13, 17:44	jdh ... ... but we have multiple definitions of "god" in English too. If the pledge were spoken in Spanish, would you similarly object? Or, does it only matter as long as we're referring to the Christian god?
proginoskes 04-Feb-13, 17:55	Yes. I'd object to any other language for reasons I stated earlier in this thread.
zorroloco 04-Feb-13, 18:06	josh if they were trying to change the pledge so that it were permanently or generally spoken in another language, i would agree with you and tat. as a once in a while thing to promote thought about the diverse nature of our country, i think it is fine. what i see here is an over-reaction on the right to an issue that was intended to be a school wide educational activity designed by students. personally, i am flabbergasted that so many people who decry the lack of motivation, thought, and civic participation among the youth would not applaud any attempt by teenagers to change their world in a positive way. even if they disagreed with the message, i would applaud them for caring, for being creative, and for taking action. when the univ. of washington young republicans did a bake sale where they charged minorities less than they charged whites was a perfect example. i could not have disagreed more strongly with their message (that minorities get an easier deal in america than whites). but at the same time, i respected nd applauded them for caring about issues and taking action.
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