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 pawnreally Christian in it's theology, these are many RC's who do believe in Jesus Christ the same way I do - as Lord and Savior. By number alone, there will be more RC's in Heaven than any other Christian, but none if this changes the reality of what Romanism has done Christianity. The intent of translations is the same. Nothing is changed that has been needed. You want to parse swords over a word here or a word there in various parts of various translations of the Bible and then tell me that makes the entire message unreliable? This just isn't true. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no man cometh unto the Father but through me". This really isn't even an "us vs them" thing. It is just one more reality of existence. Name one thing in life that you get to have both way? Eat ice cream every meal for a year without impacting health? Spend all your money on wine, women, and song and still have enough to make rent? Can you be here and there at the same time? This isn't a new and radical idea. For anything there is only one way it can be done right. This does not change when it comes to things spiritual. But it's not a big deal. There are no soul's to sell or quests to complete. Nothing mroe than a recognition of Jesus Christ for who He was. God made salvation SOOOO easy. It is man who tried to complicate things. I'm not about to send you "down there" because there is *NO* "down there" - there is, however, ultimate destruction awaiting those who chose to reject Jesus Christ. It is your choice - not mine. "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." |
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saintinsanity 05-Dec-06, 08:54 |
To Kem JD, nice post, I must concede the argument for now. Damn you Gadget!!! Good night. |
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soulcrates 05-Dec-06, 09:19 |
jdh, there is ony one path that leads to the Father and salvation. That path can only come through Jesus Christ." this is why christian countries mnonopolized the modern world with war in the 18th,19th, and20th, and now 21st centuries. That's some of the most ignorant crap that I've heard in some time, thanks for providing it, immediately after calling me ignorant. Amazing, simply amazing. Ethnocentric world war III hate speech, and then get pissed when another group says the same thing. In the Qur'an it is specifically stated that no matter if you're a Jew, Christian, Mormon, Buddhist, or any other religion, you can still make it into heaven, if you do the right thing, charity, good deeds, regular prayer. You saying ONLY people who follow your religion go to heaven, is why we have wars today. It's ignorant, and you cannot even see the irony in that stupidity. |
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soulcrates 05-Dec-06, 09:22 |
By the way jd, |
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soul is no way to justify killing in the name of God, unlike Islam. Christian countries have not monopolized the world so much as the global elite who have controlled those countries for centuries. The global elite are not Christians and even if they were there is no way to justfy their behavior from a Christian perspective. You cannot do enough "good things" to cover over one simple and undeniable truth - the wages of sin is death. There is not a single person on this planet who did enough good things he did not age and did not die. To work your way to Heaven is say you are your own salvation and you are not. We are nothing but frail human beings, subject to falls, when it comes to our sinful natures. Jesus Christ is the ony answer - the only unique answer in the world that tells me that *I* can work my way to Heaven, which is proven time and tiem again to be patently rediculous and impossible. Faith is the only means by which men can be saved. Jesus is the only way to the Father. We have wars today because humans suck. If my position causes you start a war with me, you have the problem, not I. Theology speaking your preacher aquaintence, if he repented his sin, can still be in heaven, but it is doubtful on a practical level. The level of sin required to perpetrate such a crime means a large amount of resistence to the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer. The Bible states unequivically that the only unpardonable sin is blasphemy against thhe Holy Spirit - in other words refusing to listen and recieve instruction. You are saved by faith, but your faith is demonstrated by your actions. "If you love me, keep my commandments," are the words of Jesus Christ. No man is perfect and all will fall and stumble at times, even horribly at times, but good actions are the hallmark of a Child of God. People cannot do what they want wantonly and still call themselves Christians. |
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jd i know it is faith for you....but i just have a problem with a god that is so small minded that he would care about what name we call him...or care what we call our belief...i would like think that if there is a god, he is big enough to judge us based on how we live our lives, how we treat other living creatures, how we care for our community and ecosystem...not whether we call him jesus, allah, vishnu or fred. i have a problem with basing everything on the concept that god created us so imperfectly that we have to be born into sin...what the hell is that? god makes us flawed, and than requires us to ask for forgiveness? why??? it is so convoluted and silly.... |
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leo_london 05-Dec-06, 10:04 |
That has always been my problem. In my ( extremely ) humble opinion, followers of all religions make their God too " small ". God would " need " nothing..certainly not our adulation or prayer. Why cast out non-believers who lead a decent ( not sinless, I understand that part of the doctrine ) life, in favour of those pious individuals who have " faith " but commit the most despicable sins or lead a life based on greed and exploiting their fellow man. Strange how some of the most vile creatures manage to find " faith " when the grim reaper is knocking on the door. |
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Jeff can come up with many examples of things for which there are several equally valid paths...so can you.*** In practical terms there may be more than one way to skin a cat, but there are not more than one "best" way to skin that same cat. There can be only one ultimate "best" or truth. This is the nature of truth. To say otherwise causes much violence to the definition. You may argue about the validity of different paths, but one will always be more vallid than the other until one is the most valid. This is the nature of things. ***i know it is faith for you....but i just have a problem with a god that is so small minded that he would care about what name we call him...or care what we call our belief...i would like think that if there is a god, he is big enough to judge us based on how we live our lives, how we treat other living creatures, how we care for our community and ecosystem...not whether we call him jesus, allah, vishnu or fred*** I understand your confusion because you have been sold a bill of good about a God you wouldn't worship even if you knew he was real. What you must understand are the realities of this existence. There is no answer to the problem of sin except death or Jesus Christ. We all have sinful natures there is no denying this. The penalty for sin, any sin, in the presence of a perfect, just and righteous God is death. By this natural law God has every right to kill us all - smoke us right out fo existence. But I'm here typing and you there responding. Why? Love. God gave us *ONE* solution to our problem - that is Jesus Christ - whom God sent because He loved the world. Is it His fault that He gave us the answer to our problem when He by all rights could have gotten rid of us and we still cry "foul"? It's a practical consideration. If you have a poison and someone offers you the antidote do you moan about only having one choice that there should be more than one antidote to chose from? Or would you try and agure that even though that antidote is known to work that you want to use a different antidote? You are paying attention to the wrong issues. You live, you breath, you chose your own path because God wills that this is the way it should be. You are not forced to chose God, yet you castigrate Him as if you know anyhing about Him! Read the last few hours of Him life as a man on this planet - scouraged and crucified so that man may live with Him - yet after all that pain and suffering allowing you to mock and spit on him! Yeah, He's a horrible bad guy . . . (in case you missed the sarcasm, it's there) ***i have a problem with basing everything on the concept that god created us so imperfectly that we have to be born into sin...what the hell is that? god makes us flawed, and than requires us to ask for forgiveness? why??? it is so convoluted and silly....*** We've been through this before. God created man perfect. Sin enetered in and has been passed on. You were not created imperfect, specifically, by God. God does not make you flawed. You are imperfect as a consequence of living in a fallen world. There is no convoultion just practical answers to practical problems. You are free to chose as you will. |
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leo You are correct. God does not "need" our adulation or prayer |
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soulcrates 05-Dec-06, 10:07 |
Imperialism has nothing to do with Christianity. "There is no "Holy War" in Christianity, like Islam." I remember reading about the Crusades. "Jesus Christ is the ony answer" Not true, many people who lived before Jesus could have still made it into heaven, if they lived their lives properly. "Faith is the only means by which men can be saved." Now this is 1/2 true. I disagree with Martin Luther than faith alone creates salvation, although by having faith it makes it easier to do the right thing. Doing the right thing is the path to salvation, not faith alone. About my step-uncle, the preacher, I'd have to say that from this incident the lesson I learned is that he who preaches loudest, is usually hiding something. Jesus also noticed this, and said something like, Forget about his sliver, and concentrate on the plank in your own eye. This is more true than most wish to believe. An deacon in my Church that I was confirmed in, would treat unruly church goers with embarrassing actions. He would walk up next to their isle, and just stare at people menacingly, like a jerk. If someone was seen talking, if only for a moment, he would escort them into the soundproof children's room. He acted like a policeman, and was very distrubing to the overall comfort of the church. After I graduated, he got arrested for selling and trading child pornography. Go figure. |
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soul The Crusades were launched by a corrupt Roman Catholic reigious leadership co-conspiring with the nobility. There is *NO* basis in the Bile for such an action. These actions are not an indictment of Christanity, merely an indictment of the men who perpetuated them. ***Not true, many people who lived before Jesus could have still made it into heaven, if they lived their lives properly.*** Salvation has always been about faith. The book of Hebrews is clear that Abraham was saved for his faith - not his actions. ***Now this is 1/2 true. I disagree with Martin Luther than faith alone creates salvation, although by having faith it makes it easier to do the right thing. Doing the right thing is the path to salvation, not faith alone.*** You may disagree, but that is not the Gospel. Faith is the only way to salvation. "8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." Ephesian 2:8-10. |
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leo_london 05-Dec-06, 10:23 |
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leo |
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cop out <Faith is the only way to salvation.> you can only be saved by believing something for which there is no hard evidence? god grants us intelligence, free will, and choice...and then says you cannot use any of it if you want to be saved. just believe this ancient parchment written by nomadic sheep herders 2000 years ago and you can live in eternal paradise...otherwise, burn in hell. nice..... |
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jd <just practical answers to practical problems. You are free to chose as you will.> practical...surely you jest. accept a myth as a way of life? accept without evidence that this man was born of a virgin birth, was resurrected to absolve us of our sins? whoa...practical??? seems far fetched and out there to me. |
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jeff by 'accepting christ as your saviour.'*** Theologically speaking yes, but salvation does not free you from the natural consequences and responsibilities of any action. ***you can only be saved by believing something for which there is no hard evidence?*** No hard evidence? Look in the mirror. Oh! You want the filmstrip showing God creating the Universe or a special revelation just for you? ***god grants us intelligence, free will, and choice...and then says you cannot use any of it if you want to be saved.*** You use *ALL OF* intelligence, free, and choice when. You use it all when you choose Jesus Christ ***just believe this ancient parchment written by nomadic sheep herders 2000 years ago and you can live in eternal paradise*** The NT was not written by nomadic sheep herders, in fact, Luke was a physician, and Paul one of the most learned men in the entirety of Judea, studied un Gilimel himself (had to have the Torah *memorized* to do this). Even if the NT was written merely by some nomadic sheep herders that fact in way no is an indictment of its veracity. I know you throw that in because it carries a certain connotation depicting disdain for which you seem to agree. ***otherwise, burn in hell*** otherwise, destruction - burning in hell for eternity is a pagan concept handed right to us by the Romanists. |
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jeff Then live perfectly from this day forward. Not one mistake. Should be easy since your nature is "good". ***our salvation (so to speak) lies in rising above our base (not sinful) nature to become more generous, caring, and aware.*** which is an impossibility - man has been hopelessly and woefully impotent to actually do this ***practical...surely you jest. accept a myth as a way of life? accept without evidence that this man was born of a virgin birth, was resurrected to absolve us of our sins? whoa...practical??? seems far fetched and out there to me.*** It is a practical solution to a practical problem, the fact that you personally have a problem with the particulars has zero bearing on the actually practicallity of the solution itself. |
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jd <***you can only be saved by believing something for which there is no hard evidence?*** No hard evidence? Look in the mirror. Oh! You want the filmstrip showing God creating the Universe or a special revelation just for you?> why would god give us intelligence, reasoning, and a questioning nature, only to tell us that we must believe this mythology w/o proof? yeah...a filmstrip showing god creating the universe would help...or...even one scrap of hard evidence! there is none! zero! zilch! and yet i am supposed to override my logic based on what? stuff that was written before they knew about antibiotics, the solar system, the human brain, etc., ect....should i believe the ancients about my bodily humours as well? or that the sun revolves around the earth? or that it is ok sell my daughter into slavery? |
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jeff is no hard evidence, then we are not really using it, are we?*** You can use it to come up with whatever answer you want. You have a right to be wrong. No one is expecting you to overrride your own logic, but you have already made an a priori assumption that a belief and philosphy of God to be illogical. The evidence, like I've said before, resides in the Creation, our moral nature, and the fact that we need a beginning. You want the filmstrip. It's not necessary. We've been given enough. Paul is talking about the Pagan here: "19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; *SO THAT THEY ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE*: 21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things" Romans 1:19-23 (empahsis mine, obviously). We ignore what is obvious so that we may justify that which we know to be wrong. This is the human condition. |
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ok right. |
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jeff wrong? those things do not need to be wrong as a prerequesite to belief, especially since nothing you see, hear, or feel disproves God. why does logic have to be the enemy. suspending logic is not a prerequesite to belief. one can use logic to demonstrate arguments for a belief in God. there is no "blind obedience" to God - God does not ask for this - He has given all you need. I do not follow blindly, once again, blind obedience is not a prerequsite for belief. |
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soulcrates 05-Dec-06, 13:36 |
Jdh How does this justify the idea, "Believe Christ was God or burn in hell"? I don't see how you gather the connection between the two. Islam believes Allah did all of this, so why does Christianity get a monopoly on creation? |
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soul connection between the two*** You'd have to read the entire exchange between me and jeff - then you'll have your context and connection ***Islam believes Allah did all of this, so why does Christianity get a monopoly on creation?*** Because only one can be right |
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jd also, i wonder why you think only one path is correct. i vehemently disagree. while i do not believe in god, and that is the path to salvation for me, it is not for you. i do not believe that you should change your beliefs because i disagree with you. if it brings you happiness and a false sense of security for the long boring hereafter, than it is the rightpath for you...as islam is for muslims, etc... that is one of the main reasons i hate religion...my way is right and you are damned! neener neener... it is a crock...but if it makes you happy, then by all means believe it! |
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soulcrates 05-Dec-06, 15:27 |
Here is where Jeff and I differ. |
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soulcrates 05-Dec-06, 15:29 |
Correction, |
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jeff a proof of god, jesus' divinity, or any of that.*** the fact you exist - anything exists - points toward a creator ***also, i wonder why you think only one path is correct.*** we've been over this before. i wonder if you were paying attention. it has to do with the nature of truth. not everything can be true. by the very definition of truth there can be only one. 1+1 can only equal 2; this is truth. there are not varrying and alternative answers to 1+1. you do not get to decide for yourself what the answer to 1+1 is because there is only one answer. 2 is right is all others are wrong. ***that is one of the main reasons i hate religion...my way is right and you are damned! neener neener... it is a crock...but if it makes you happy, then by all means believe it! *** you have trouble coming to grips with the idea that someone has to be wrong - I get that. you are not comfortable with the implications. |
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soul How? The crazy muslims may see this as an excuse to attack and blow things up, but this is no reason for a Christian to start a war. ***Is that what you want Jdh? You want a religious war, in the name of the non-violent Jesus? *** Why would I want a war? I have no clue why you'd think that is what I would want. ***Muslims who study the Qur'an know the Qur'an clearly states that you do not have to be a muslim, but if you were to have lead an exemplary life, and given to charity, and prayed regularly, then you will be accepted into heaven for being good. On the other hand, I don't recall seeing that specifically stated in the N.T., but perhaps Jdh could inform me otherwise.*** Why would I inform you otherwise. Have you been paying attention? "Being good" is not a prerequisite for Heaven - Jesus Christ is the only way Home. There is *NOTHING* in the NT that allows for people into Heaven outside of Jesus Christ. |
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soulcrates 05-Dec-06, 15:47 |
Jdh, you're telling me that if I simply believe in Jesus |
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soul behaviors you have described are wrong. the Grace of a God is not a liscence to sin and the true Christian understands this. Real faith is demonstrated by obedience. |
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