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zorroloco 02-Feb-13, 08:09	saying the pledge... with a twist this is what i like. young people making a point in a poignant and thoughtful way. exactly what i want to see kids doing...wrestling with social issues, taking a stand, making a point in a non-violent and creative way. what ever you think about their message, you have to hand it to them for courage and creativity. High School Students Recite Pledge of Allegiance in Arabic A bunch of high school students from Colorado just did something risky while reciting the Pledge of Allegiance… and it had nothing to do with “Under God”: Rocky Mountain High School senior Nuha Kapatayes had butterflies in her stomach Monday as she recited the first words of the Pledge of Allegiance in Arabic — a language she learned as a child and now speaks fluently — over the school’s public address system during morning announcements. Kapatayes is one among a couple dozen members of the student-initiated Cultural Arms Club, which seeks to “destroy the barriers, embrace the cultures” that exist at not just Rocky Mountain High School, but also within the community. Members in November recited the Pledge in Spanish, sparking intense debate about whether saying the words of the Pledge in any language other than English was unpatriotic. Normally, I’m opposed to saying the Pledge at all and I salute those students who opt out of it, but reciting it in a different language is really another way to raise consciousness about what we’re actually saying, what it means to people from other cultures who say it, and whether everyone needs to participate. The school received negative feedback from some parents, but the students haven’t faced any backlash from their peers. Meanwhile, some commenters are flipping out over pledging allegiance to a nation “under Allah” or the idea of anyone shoving a Pledge like that down everybody’s throat. Welcome to our world. www.patheos.com
chaz- 02-Feb-13, 08:27	... I can understand why some parents might object. And indeed, some parts of our culture are simply not ready to comprehend the meaning of the pledge in this context ... and therefore might take offense with some legitimacy. While I can agree with healthy risk-taking, especially by youth testing their wings, just how much 'anti-establishment' behavior is appropriate? (or, is there potentially too much?) After all, those who have now adapted to the culture into which they were born, say 40 or 60 or 80 years ago, have some right "not to change", do they not? Or, is being forced or coerced into this kind of new ground legitimate for those significantly less able?
hennybogan1953 02-Feb-13, 09:39	Pleading allegiance to the the terrorists god is funny and ironic, nothing to worry about that is what kids do. They will eventually grow out of it.
tat3225 02-Feb-13, 10:56	These kids are so stupid So, a bunch of arabs hijacked something and spewed arabic in an anti-american protest that forced arabic culture on everyone else. Nothing new. Except perhaps now these kids and their parents are (hopefully) on the department of homeland security watch list, and for good freaking reason.
rmannstaedt 02-Feb-13, 11:02	ehh How is saying the pledge in arabic in any way anti-american? It is still an expression of loyalty to the federal flag and the republic of the United States of America. Please explain how that can that be anything but pro-american? If you think about it, it is more like it was conceived as a way and means of reaching other arabs and americans and telling them - showing them - that it is actually possible to be arabic and still be pro-american.
zorroloco 02-Feb-13, 11:06	tat typical conservative silliness from you. rmann is correct. how does changing the language make it unamerican or anything but a pledge of allegiance. as if the meaning changes when one uses a different language? was saying it in spanish also anti-american? what if they said it in french, italian or german? or what if they said it in sign language? would you still think they were stupid anti-americans? methinks your comment says a hell of a lot more about your intelligence than that of these students.
tat3225 02-Feb-13, 11:14	I'm all about different cultures and learning different things. France....great culture. Spain....great culture.....UK....great culture....Sweden....also great and the list goes on and on and on. Americans LOVE other cultures. No other country embraces cultural trends from abroad more than Americans do. We LOVE new things. These kids hijacked something and recited the pledge of allegiance in a language that, at least to my ears, conjures up images of rape, terrorism, violence, women who are covered up, poverty, acid attacks, women lighting themselves on fire, female circumcision, corrupt governments, public beheadings and dismemberment, public flogging of women, and harsh punishment. So thanks, but no thanks. I have no respect for arab americans who force their "culture" on us as though it is a good thing.
rmannstaedt 02-Feb-13, 11:32	arabic etc. I understand your associations, but they are actually incorrect. First of all, you confuse "arabic" and "muslim". But apart from that... Rape: all over the world. Terrorism: yes, lots of it is arabic, but if you look at the terrorist attacks that have hit the US recently - they were all from inside, done by quite ordinary (though sick) Americans. And yes, school shootings are terrorism. Violence: current uprisings are in the Middle-East, but those countries by no means have any kind of monopoly on violence. For instance, what is waging war but an institutionalized version of violence? women who are covered up: yes, muslim. poverty: there are many countries with far greater poverty than the arabic ones. Take a look at Africa... Acid attacks: new to me, didn't know that was arabic at all. Last I heard of one, it was an attack on the Bolshoi ballet director by one of the dancers (or someone paid by one of the dancers). women lighting themselves on fire: India tradition, not arabic (far as I know). female circumcision: relatively rare, limited (I believe) to the Sudanese tribes. But apart from that, muslim. corrupt governments: all over the world, even Europe and US. public beheadings/dismemberment: muslim. public flogging of women: muslim. harsh punishment: not sure what you are thinking of here, but - ever take a look at a French prison, for instance?
hennybogan1953 02-Feb-13, 11:39	Not Born Yesterday! No they didn't do it out of love for country, they did it out of protest and for publicity! Religious freedom and freedom of speech is something we can handle, just don't pee up my leg and tell me it's raining. It's not even really that newsworthy or creative!
tat3225 02-Feb-13, 11:40	guy that condones horrible treatment of women Cut the crap. In what countries do the people speak arabic? Islamic countries. In what language is the Qu'ran and the hadith and every single islamic text written in? Arabic. You're trendy, but horribly naive. Islam IS a government. It's not a religion. It's only a religion OUTSIDE of Islamic countries in places where people have spiritual CHOICES. Islam is not a choice in Pakistan or Sudan or Saudi Arabia and so on. It is life. You're also a complete jerk for defending nations who treat women horribly. I'm sorry, but it's true. Ignorance must be bliss.
hennybogan1953 02-Feb-13, 11:43	Some rotten ideas in Denmark! YA! and don't ever ever talk about FRANCE like that again!
tat3225 02-Feb-13, 11:46	By the way....women in Afghanistan light themselves on fire every single day in an attempt to commit suicide and escape their lives. Lighting oneself on fire is NOT merely an "Indian tradition".............unless you are referring to the Hindu practice of wrapping and burning corpses and then putting the ashes in the Ganges river. Which is a totally different thing.
tat3225 02-Feb-13, 11:49	Deleted by tat3225 on 02-Feb-13, 12:00.
tat3225 02-Feb-13, 12:02	rmannstaedt Apologies for calling you a jerk. Few things get me more fired up than this subject.
hennybogan1953 02-Feb-13, 12:02	Really Tat, have you seen the dress! Flogging was getting off light!
rmannstaedt 02-Feb-13, 12:13	Cut the crap In what way is pointing out that you are incorrect the same as "defending nations who treat woman horribly"? I haven't said a single word in defence of any nation, except to point out that the arabic countries do not have a monopoly on most of the things you associate them with. Islam is a government the same way Catholicism was a government in Europe 600 years ago - which is to say: not at all. Ask any historian you like, I doubt you will find anyone who will agree with your statement. In Europe, the Catholic Church was deeply embedded in almost any institution you could name, including the government, but with the singular exception of the Vatican it never was and never could be a government in itself - and the similarities between Catholicism in the 14th-15th century and Islam today are very numerous. I stand corrected about the burning - I was referring to the hindu practice of burning the wife of the deceased man alive; I was not aware that Afghan women lit themselves on fire. You are welcome to call me a "complete jerk". I could call you a fossilized conservative. But in what way is that informative - or even interesting?
rmannstaedt 02-Feb-13, 12:15	Sorry I didn't see your post until now. Apology accepted - I very much understand that any woman would get fired up by this subject. And no, I did not intend to defend those countries and the way they treat women; I find it abominable.
hennybogan1953 02-Feb-13, 12:15	Correction to Denmark Just googled Denmark and found out they have a chick for a Prime Minister named Helle_Thorning-Schmidt. She is cougar hot and therefor Denmark is now cool.
shamash 02-Feb-13, 16:56	the "banality of evil", shrugging off what is heinous as commonplace yes, Ruben's dismissive remark: "Rape: all over the world." whether dismissive, or simply glossing over holding perpetrators in Islamic countries accountable simply because criminals brutally terrorize, target, track, attack, and rape the women among us in other countries as well -- is right up there with the remark made by a character named The Margrave in a stage-play where, when a girl loses her older sister, he simply remarks to her: "Women die every day."
ace-of-aces 02-Feb-13, 19:51	President Eisenhower added " under God " by law en.wikipedia.org [edit] Addition of "under God""Under God" redirects here. For the book, see Under God (book). Louis A. Bowman, an attorney from Illinois, was the first to initiate the addition of "under God" to the Pledge. The National Society of the Daughters of the American Revolution gave him an Award of Merit as the originator of this idea.[13][14] He spent his adult life in the Chicago area and was Chaplain of the Illinois Society of the Sons of the American Revolution. At a meeting on February 12, 1948,[13] Lincoln's Birthday, he led the Society in swearing the Pledge with two words added, "under God." He stated that the words came from Lincoln's Gettysburg Address. Though not all manuscript versions of the Gettysburg Address contain the words "under God", all the reporters' transcripts of the speech as delivered do, as perhaps Lincoln may have deviated from his prepared text and inserted the phrase when he said "that the nation shall, under God, have a new birth of freedom." Bowman repeated his revised version of the Pledge at other meetings.[13] In 1951, the Knights of Columbus, the world's largest Catholic fraternal service organization, also began including the words "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance.[15] In New York City, on April 30, 1951, the Board of Directors of the Knights of Columbus adopted a resolution to amend the text of their Pledge of Allegiance at the opening of each of the meetings of the 800 Fourth Degree Assemblies of the Knights of Columbus by addition of the words "under God" after the words "one nation." Over the next two years, the idea spread throughout Knights of Columbus organizations nationwide. On August 21, 1952, the Supreme Council of the Knights of Columbus at its annual meeting adopted a resolution urging that the change be made universal and copies of this resolution were sent to the President, the Vice President (as Presiding Officer of the Senate) and the Speaker of the House of Representatives. The National Fraternal Congress meeting in Boston on September 24, 1952, adopted a similar resolution upon the recommendation of its president, Supreme Knight Luke E. Hart. Several State Fraternal Congresses acted likewise almost immediately thereafter. This campaign led to several official attempts to prompt Congress to adopt the Knights of Columbus’ policy for the entire nation. These attempts failed. In 1952, Holger Christian Langmack wrote a letter to President Truman suggesting the inclusion of "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance. Mr. Langmack was a Danish philosopher and educator who came to the United States in 1911. He was one of the originators of the Prayer Breakfast and a religious leader in Washington, D.C. President Truman met with him along with several others to discuss the inclusion of "under God" and "love" just before "liberty and justice".[citation needed] At the suggestion of a correspondent, Representative Louis C. Rabaut of Michigan sponsored a resolution to add the words "under God" to the Pledge in 1953. Rev. Dr. George MacPherson Docherty (left) and President Eisenhower (second from left) on the morning of February 7, 1954, at the New York Avenue Presbyterian ChurchPrior to February 1954, no endeavor to get the Pledge officially amended succeeded. The final successful push came from George MacPherson Docherty. Some American presidents honored Lincoln's birthday by attending services at the church Lincoln attended, New York Avenue Presbyterian Church by sitting in Lincoln's pew on the Sunday nearest February 12. On February 7, 1954, with President Eisenhower sitting in Lincoln's pew, the church's pastor, George MacPherson Docherty, delivered a sermon based on the Gettysburg Address titled "A New Birth of Freedom." He argued that the nation's might lay not in arms but its spirit and higher purpose. He noted that the Pledge's sentiments could be those of any nation, that "there was something missing in the pledge, and that which was missing was the characteristic and definitive factor in the American way of life." He cited Lincoln's words "under God" as defining words that set the United States apart from other nations. President Eisenhower had been baptized a Presbyterian very recently, just a year before. He responded enthusiastically to Docherty in a conversation following the service. Eisenhower acted on his suggestion the next day and on February 8, 1954, Rep. Charles Oakman (R-Mich.), introduced a bill to that effect. Congress passed the necessary legislation and Eisenhower signed the bill into law on Flag Day, June 14, 1954.[16] Eisenhower stated "From this day forward, the millions of our school children will daily proclaim in every city and town, every village and rural school house, the dedication of our nation and our people to the Almighty. ... In this way we are reaffirming the transcendence of religious faith in America's heritage and future; in this way we shall constantly strengthen those spiritual weapons which forever will be our country's most powerful resource, in peace or in war."[17] The phrase "under God" was incorporated into the Pledge of Allegiance June 14, 1954, by a Joint Resolution of Congress amending §7 of the Flag Code enacted in 1942.[16
ace-of-aces 02-Feb-13, 20:41	My personal thoughts on " under God " This is the first amendment club and every member is aware that there is separation of belief systems ( religions or ideology except democracy ) and state. Having said that school prayers are not allowed in public schools. Now there is a loop hole because when you recite "pledge of allegiance" nobody can ban God from public schools anymore. Whose God are you talking about ? Nobody can define the precise definition of God. If I bring a statue to school and claim this is my God can the school deny my rights? In North Korea, the founding father Kim Il Sung is still revered as God. After second world war during Eisenhower's presidency we were fighting cold war with former communist Soviet Union and China. Both of them suppressed religions and put their communist ideology to replace religions. At that time U.S believe who believe in God and religions are more moral and will triumph the evil empire Soviet Union. The founding fathers were much wiser. Look at the current situations world wide. We are fighting Islamic extremisim and terrorism. Initially, we were very happy that Green Revolution swept across middle-east and thought demacracy will triumph and replace, dictatorial, totalitarian regime but may not be true. For example, in Egypt Mr Morsi would like to introduce Islamic fundamentalism which will suppress democracy. First amendment has universal truth everywhere in the world and when the state endorses one particular religion or ideolgy there will be no democracy. I believe when the state endorses religion by saying " under God " in the pledge of allegiance and " In God we trust " in the US currency, it is totally wrong. IMHO they should be eliminated. This is my personal opinion and you can disagree with me.
rmannstaedt 03-Feb-13, 03:49	on rape and evil Shamash is right. When an evil grows commonplace it becomes "banal". We close our eyes to it, saying "it happens". And yes, rape is evil. An evil, which lives right alongside us, just next door or at the next party. There is a point here. And the point is, that where The Margrave dismiss the death of the girl as commonplace ("women die every day"), I dismiss the notion that rape is something that happens mainly in arabic countries. It doesn't. It happens right here, and if you close your eyes to it - if you ignore what is happening around you, at the party, in the flat next door, then you are giving it a free pass, letting it flourish, helping it grow. Thinking of an evil as something that happens "over there" is very much the same as ignoring that you actually live right next to it.
proginoskes 03-Feb-13, 08:28	Jeff I think the argument is pretty easy to see here. We are an English speaking country. Yes, yes . . . I know we do not have an "official" language and we are also historically a country of immigrants and in many parts of the country this is still a very regular phenomenon. My favorite burrito cart in SoCal basically requires I order in spanish (a language I don't speak well . . . can get to the bathroom or the airport) to get things right. With that said we are an English speaking country as part of the collective american cultural consciousness, and we are better for it. You would no believe the awe many of my colleagues from countries like China, Pakistan, India, and Africa for instance have at the phenomenon that they can travel 3000 miles from the east to west coast and be able to speak and communicate with everyone there. One friend of mine told me he could travel 30 miles from his boyhood home and not be able to communicate with anyone in their language. So, to me it's not a capital crime or anything but, I think it's a blatant slap in the face of the culture of this country to say the pledge in a other language, especially *arabic* given this country's problems with a small group of islamic crazy people in recent years. I think it's disrespectful. Everything might be lawful but not all things are expedient . . .
tat3225 03-Feb-13, 15:23	rmannstaedt.....rape You don't get it. Rape in the United States is a crime and is socially unacceptable. The police take a rape accusation seriously, investigate it, collect evidence and so on. Justice is sought and many victims (emphasis on the word victim) get justice. Rape in many places (if not all places) in Arabic speaking countries isn't exactly considered rape by the same definition we have. It's culturally acceptable and most places are set up such that women are blamed for being raped. Virginity is prized and there are punishments for women who have pre-marital sex- even if they are raped- and extramarital sex is also culturally and in some places legally unacceptable. It doesn't matter if a woman was raped. Rapes are nearly impossible to prosecute and accusing someone of rape results in women getting beaten for shaming their families, or turned away from the police completely because they don't have witnesses or for some other such excuse. Rape happens literally all the time in these countries and it's estimated that the majority of women there are raped throughout their life for a number of reasons. The first being that women have like no rights at all. Many women have absolutely no say whatsoever in who they marry and are frequently married off to older men at young ages. If women are raped, the crime is not the actual rape, it's the woman talking about it or accusing someone of rape. Women are punished for this. These punishments can include being locked up and starved, having one's nose and ears cut off and so on. Women are blamed for shaming their families all the time. In fact women are blamed for many things and the government condones it and does nothing at all to protect women. Women in Islamic countries are subjugated and in many places are treated like animals or property. The countries you are defending have a rape culture that is absolutely nothing at all like Denmark or the United States. As you have said numerous times, rape happens everywhere. But the difference is that the cultures in arabic speaking countries either completely condone it and don't see it as a bad thing, or they turn a blind eye to it and scare women in to simply living with it. Women have nowhere to turn and in most cases, women just don't have rights at all. They are property and are second class citizens. Your denial of the things I stated earlier in this thread is just absurd to me. As is your defense of countries that condone and do all of the things you claim are heinous and unacceptable.
itchynscratchy 04-Feb-13, 00:03	I can find nothing to disagree with there tat. Everything in that last post is absolutely true, and the treatment of women in the islamic world is appalling. However, I'm struggling to link all of that to the language itself, and I don't want to. Just as I don't associate Korean with the crimes of Kim Il-Sung.
rmannstaedt 04-Feb-13, 00:32	tat Thank you, tat, for your considered response. Well argued, and I find nothing to disagree with there - except for your statement that I am defending those countries. Saying it again and again does not make it true. You are confusing a disagreement with your arguments with a defence of the object of your hatred. Like, you are saying that "A" has committed murder. I am saying that "B" has also committed murder. You then claim that I am defending "A"? I trust you are also not going to accuse itchyn of defending them as well?
zorroloco 04-Feb-13, 04:25	look at rape in the us military and tell me again how we do not have a rape culture.
tat3225 04-Feb-13, 06:41	I'm sorry, but are you guys freaking retarded? I'm not joking. Seriously what is wrong with you? Go back and read the thread. I said that I thought of those things when I hear Arabic spoken. NOT that there is a literal connection between Arabic and rape (even though it appears that there is). Also, there is nothing awesome about Arab culture. Unless you like body odor, yelling, overwhelming musky cologne, hot weather, and fear. It's also clear that you need to spend a few months of your life scratching the surface of the Islamic world by reading Islamic text. Notably the Hadith. Honest to god this isn't even an intelligent discussion. Furthermore, rmannstaedt, just stop talking. You DID defend those countries and you literally have not had a damn clue what you've been talking about at all in this thread. You responded to me and shamash like a clueless and naive sixth grader who doesn't understand complex concepts. I have zero patience at all for western morons who don't understand the situation in Islamic countries yet attempt to have some kind of doctored and very politically correct discussion about it, that frequently involves bringing the totally irrelevant "problems" of other nations into the discussion as a form of distraction. Either out of ignorance, or because people psychologically can't handle what is happening in Islamic countries. Zorroloco you are clearly a former military rapist yourself, or a total a**hole for even comparing a "rape culture" in the US military to Islamic countries. Honestly, that was low, and you are completely insane and have no idea what youre talking about. That comment is so much worse than any rape-related republican comment. It is so insensitive, notably in response to my recent post, that you should immediately go jab yourself with an AIDS laced hypodermic needle while running across a freeway. I cannot even believe you would seriously compare the treatment of women in Afghanistan to rape/the treatment of women in the US military. Go jump off a bridge immediately. Seriously this is one of the most ignorant, insensitive, and STUPID things I have ever seen anyone say, ever. Women in Afghanistan look to the US military for help. They are inspired by women in the US military and the gender roles in the US military is a model for change, and has inspired different ways of thinking in places like Afghanistan. Women in afghanistan and in other places are beaten and maimed, by having parts of their bodies cut off, for BEING raped. So no, the "rape culture" in the US military youre speaking of has nothing to do with what is being discussed. I also think you are laying down some absurd accusations for the sake of being inflammatory and a total jerk. It is because of you that idiot rumors are spread and perpetuated and it is because of people like you that an Arab girl can force everyone to listen to the pledge of allegiance in Arabic while you sit back and applaud like a circus monkey. This discussion has proved that this forum is nothing more than a TMZ for supposed "issues" in the world.
tat3225 04-Feb-13, 06:44	GOD I'M PISSED OFF.
zorroloco 04-Feb-13, 07:20	tat your prejudice is deep and blinding. your suggestion about reading is hilarious. especially coming from someone afraid to travel to another country. you mioght try spending 2 months in egypt, 2 weeks in morroco, learning arabic, and working for a palestinian for 2 years - as i have. but you will not. it is so much easier to believe what you hear than to learn stuff. as for the military, the evidence is writ large for anyone who is not afraid to learn the truth. by the way, i never compared thus military to arabic culture - just pointed out that we have a rape culture in the us military. your blindness does not make it go away! www.huffingtonpost.com www.kvue.com abcnews.go.com www.guardian.co.uk truth-out.org
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