Play online chess!

Pages:  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Next »
From	Message
a_professional_idiot 01-Dec-06, 18:47	Paging Thumper I figure you would be the one most familiar with this, although other people are free to answer if they want to. Some people were at my door, going on the rounds handing out candy canes talking about how much jesus loves me. I had nothing better to do so they talked for a while, then this came up. "Jesus prayed to God..." How does this work? Jesus IS God (by the council of Nicaea, I believe), so how does he pray to himself? The answer they gave me was "he didn't tell us, that would be too complex for us mortals," and that really doesn't answer anything.
saintinsanity 02-Dec-06, 02:07	Well I'll have a go. Jesus was God, but in order for his life and sacrifice to be meaningful, he had to be entirely human at the same time as being God. Therefore, his human nature was just like you or I, no certainty, just faith in the face of incredible obstacles, fear, and doubt. He prayed to God because, while he was God, he was removed from God and absolute knowledge of God. Otherwise, it would have just been regular old all-knowing God pretending to suffer and die, when really he would have known all along what was going to happen. Jesus, however, faced his trials with no certainty. He gained his faith from scripture and teachers just like everyone else does. Oh, and also because he had magical powers, although I bet there is some exaggeration about that, so I am ignoring that for the purposes of this discussion. Please, anyone feel free to correct me, pitch in, whatever.
proginoskes 02-Dec-06, 05:58	pawn Yes, you are on the right track. God is also eternal and timeless. Jesus was 100% man, 100% God. The part of him that was man was like you and me flesh and blood, living in time. God also had to be eternal and timeless at the same time. Therefore, from our perspective, really only an artifact of living in space/ time, it appears that there is some sort of problem, but there isn't God is both at the same time. Jesus was God the Son speaing to God the father, while all being God - all at the same time. I always fail to see what the problem is with this.
leo_london 02-Dec-06, 06:12	jdh..No problem, its the only theory that would work. God being eternal existence outside our universe and time, the only question would be...why the need to intervene ? God would " know " the beginning and end of our universe..or perhaps there are numerous ( infinite ) beginnings and endings, God is seeking perfection for that is the nature of God.
zorroloco 02-Dec-06, 07:18	you guys should watch that video on skepticism!
leo_london 02-Dec-06, 07:36	I did watch it...I particularly enjoyed the Katie Melua reference at the end...lovely girl. www.katiemelua.com" target="_blank">-> www.katiemelua.com ...for anyone interested.
zorroloco 02-Dec-06, 07:40	jd you fail to see what the problem is? <Jesus was God the Son speaking to God the father, while all being God - all at the same time.> you mean besides the fact that a miracle has to be created for this explanation to work?
saintinsanity 02-Dec-06, 08:10	Now now lets not use this thread to argue too much about believers and non believers. How about we just explore the theological ideas? Sinners! Sorry, I can't help myself sometimes. It's all the sinning. It makes me sick! I mean, ahem, nevermind. I forgive you. Or rather, I don't judge you. If God did in fact decide to come to earth in a person, how would that work? Would it be a virgin birth? Would the child know what it was, or would it just be a child? Interesting questions waiting to be explored if we don't argue about our own beliefs.
leo_london 02-Dec-06, 08:13	Jeff ...I'm not saying I believe it, but I dont see a problem. God is not man, God is unknowable. If God became man through Jesus in our time and space, the Jesus " part " of the trilogy would have self-imposed limitations. This would also explain the words Jesus is said to have uttered on the cross...father, why hast though deserted me. There would have been no sacrifice if Jesus ( as God ) was just acting out some kind of role in which he knew the ending.
thumper 02-Dec-06, 08:13	API To what people are you referring? Morman, Jehova Witness, etc. It makes a difference in what they were talking about in how I will answer your question. Do you remember what passages from which books were cited, if any? Homework assignment: What does Jesus say about himself? Who does he say he is?
proginoskes 02-Dec-06, 10:33	leo ***the only question would be...why the need to intervene ? God would " know " the beginning and end of our universe..or perhaps there are numerous ( infinite ) beginnings and endings, God is seeking perfection for that is the nature of God*** Ok . . . why . . . I will do my best to explain. The only penalty for sin - any sin, everything from murder and rape to lying and cheating to disrespect of parents - is death. There is no differentiation made between the qualtity and/or quantity of a sis with respect to the penalty. We all sin. We all miss the mark. This is the human condition. We are miserably incapable of lving a perfectly righteous life. Therefore we all deserve death. That hardly seems fair! I cannot help doing - that is sinning is not something I can control - something that only carries the penalty of death?! WTF?! Are you starting to see the need for Jesus Christ? The penalty of death that all men deserve because of our fallen nature, was paid by Jesus. He did not die to cover the penalty for just the believe. He died to reconcile the penalty of all humans. So even though I cannot help to sin, and even though my sin carries the penalty of death, I have my answer to the conundrum - Jesus Christ. He paid that penalty. Both the reighteousness and justice of God are brought together by this one important idea. The believer in Jesus Christ is seen by the Father as righteous - as Jesus is righteous - we are not seen as "forgiven," but rather as having not sinned ever - pure. This is what Christianity brings to the table that no other philosphy or religion can - the idea that it is not *you* who has to do the work, make yourself righteous, live perfectly. That was already done by God. You merely have to believe. God does the rest.
proginoskes 02-Dec-06, 10:41	jeff ***you mean besides the fact that a miracle has to be created for this explanation to work?*** It only seems a miracle to you and I - simple and rudamentary to God, easily explained. Basically, the skeptic says, unless you can explain it in a way that *I* understand I won't believe it - fine . . .
zorroloco 02-Dec-06, 12:40	jd <I cannot help doing - that is sinning is not something I can control - something that only carries the penalty of death?! WTF?! Are you starting to see the need for Jesus Christ?> see this is the part that gets me...you are saying that god created us imperfectly, and that we have to do something based on faith to save us from ourselves...the way god created us. this just seems crazy...why do i need salvation for something that is the way god made me? if you believe in god, it almost assumes that in his infinite comapssion and perfectness that he would create us perfectly...not 'born into original sin!'
saintinsanity 02-Dec-06, 14:03	where I differ from christians is defenitely in my definition of everlasting life. Because death is utterly normal and natural. It isn't a penalty in my view. It is just part of life. What happens after we die? I can't wait to find out. Wait, yes I can. I can wait forever. Alas, I shall find out too soon. But according to the natural cycle of all life (not just human life) there is birth, life, and death, regardless of sin. However, it does seem to be true that we are incapable of living perfect lives. I keep trying and trying, and brothers and sisters...hold on while I find my cigarettes, ahh....I can't do it. Of course there is a huge debate about sin, too. For now lets just admit we aren't perfect. Excellent question, Thumper. It has been my understanding that according to Matthew, Mark, and Luke, Jesus claims to be the Son of Man. John takes a further step, though and says Jesus did actually claim to be God. John is the one who raised Jesus up above humanity so far, and I'm not sure I think it was such a good idea. What I do love about the Christian idea is the sacrifice to atone for sin. Adam was the first man, sinless. But then he sinned because of the woman (yeah right) and thus we have death. The Jews used to make sacrifices to God to appease his wrath. The Passover required the sacrifice of a perfect white lamb, the blood of which to be smeared all over your door. Then Jesus, apparently perfect and sinless, was offered as the final sacrifice to atone for the sin of Adam, and of all men. It has a nice cohesion to it, it's pleasing to me, and it has closure. But then there is a huge gap in the story, and here we are 2000 years later, still waiting for something to happen, and I think that is silly. Not pleasing at all.
proginoskes 02-Dec-06, 14:36	jeff ***you are saying that god created us imperfectly*** No, I am not saying that. We exist as imperfect creatures, but God did not create us imperfect. ***that we have to do something based on faith to save us from ourselves...the way god created us*** There is *nothing* to "do" based on faith - jut believe - we are saved from our present condition, a condition that God did not create, Himself specifically. We live the way we as a direct consequence of a fallen world. ***why do i need salvation for something that is the way god made me?*** You need salvation from your current condition. God didn't specifically, Himself, make you the way you are. You are you based on an orginal perfect system allowed to continue outside of the perfection of God because of its fallen nature. ***if you believe in god, it almost assumes that in his infinite comapssion and perfectness that he would create us perfectly...not 'born into original sin!'*** His "infinite compassion and perfectness" were shown in Jesus Christ. Besides, I'm a bit confused that you would "assume" anything about a God you claim to not believe. Why must this God that you do not believe in do things the way *you* would do them in order to qualify for existence?
proginoskes 02-Dec-06, 14:45	pawn ***But then there is a huge gap in the story, and here we are 2000 years later, still waiting for something to happen, and I think that is silly. Not pleasing at all.*** It takes awhile to spread the Gospel. While this may not seem very pleasing, it only seems right to allow the population the chance to hear the message and then accept or reject God. Doors have been opened. The final message to a dying world is going out *NOW* - this post is part of that message. God is calling people out of Babylon and back to Himself, if you hear His voice, search him out now, today. He's gives everyone a fair shake. The time is quickly closing and it is time for you to chose where you will stand. Lines are being drawn in the sand. "Behold I stand at the door and knock . . ."
qiwi 02-Dec-06, 15:02	Which translation??? The word's attributed to Christ shortly before his death at the hands of the Romans seem pretty explicit.... "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me???".... If these words are accurate, then he either did not consider himself to be God.... or he was a raging schizophrenic.... In another passage that is quite possibly the most significant in the entire New Testament.... Christ says: "Before Abraham was, I am!!".... These words, according to the Mathew gospel, infuriated the pharisees/jews and were used against him as evidence of his blasphemy, i.e calling himself God.... As with the "why hast thou forsaken me" verse, many christian theologians have found the "Before Abraham was..." verse so difficult that they have simply changed it....i.e. inserted words that better fit with their own limited understanding... Various Bible translations have made a meal of the 'before Abraham was. I am' verse... e.g. the Living Bible has , "The absolute truth is that I was in existence before Abraham was ever born"... The Bible in Worldwide English has 'I already was'.... The New World translation of the Jehovah's Witnesses has "Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence I have been..... In all these cases the essence of the statement has been lost..... "I was in existence", "I have been", "I already was" are no substitute for "I am".... This has been debated at great length and the meaning of the original Greek words 'Ego Eimi' is undeniable....they mean 'I am'..... It is not dissimilar to the following verse in the Thomas Gospel: "Whoever among you becomes a child will recognise the Kingdom and will become greater than John"... What makes the Bible bashers uncomfortable when they are confronted with these explicit references to the 'Here and Now' ??? For one thing the 'here and now' is beyond their comprehension.... the 'kingdom' as they interpret it is some kind of exclusive club that one can only access after they die.... pretty piss-poor sort of a club in my opinion....... Even worse the only requirement to become a member is spineless subservience...
proginoskes 02-Dec-06, 15:23	qiwi ***If these words are accurate, then he either did not consider himself to be God.... or he was a raging schizophrenic....*** or as I pointed out - God as a man, Jesus, talking to God the Father. There is no problem here. No discomfort. No need to try and use different words. Thessence and nature of one interacting with the nature and essence of the other while maintaining their own defnitions at the same time. ***the 'kingdom' as they interpret it is some kind of exclusive club that one can only access after they die....*** The "club" is not exclsive and is open to *everyone* that believes in Jesus. He is the only prerequisite. Only the living will enter Heaven. Death is the enemy and there is no glory in death itself. Some will see Heaven without having to die. *** Even worse the only requirement to become a member is spineless subservience...*** What a ignorant statement! There is nothing spineless or subservient about the Gospel.
saintinsanity 02-Dec-06, 15:50	If I was feeling particularly philosophical and fuzzy one evening, I myself would be likely to say "before grandpa, I am." But it isn't meant to be taken literally. In the most wonderful sweeping sense, it is true. William Blake was known to say some pretty interesting things too, like "I am Jesus" or "I am Shakespeare." I don't think he was entirely incorrect.
proginoskes 02-Dec-06, 16:19	pawn there is no other way to take the statement - Jesus said *HE WAS GOD*
qiwi 02-Dec-06, 16:31	JD... Is this club "open to everyone" as you claim, or it is only open to "everyone who believes in Jesus"...???
saintinsanity 02-Dec-06, 17:44	Now now of course it is open to everyone. I certainly don't feel threatened. jd, can you show me a passage where Jesus said we aren't God?
proginoskes 02-Dec-06, 18:04	qiwi Stupid question. Do not know why you asked it.
proginoskes 02-Dec-06, 18:07	pawn "9Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, 10Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:" Isaiah 46:9-10 This is who Jesus was saying He was. The *SAME* God that made this very nonconfusing statement. You are not God. I am not God. We are not God. God is God.
saintinsanity 02-Dec-06, 18:11	But then if God is God, Jesus can't be God too. It says, "there is none else" and this was written before Christ.
saintinsanity 02-Dec-06, 18:11	Also I was hoping for Jesus quotes
qiwi 02-Dec-06, 18:40	You are either with us or against us.... Hold on a minute JD.... by "club" I wasn't referring to this forum, I was referring to the "heaven" that most Christians hope they are going to after they die.... Look... this club/kingdom that you are talking about, is it open to all or it is open only to those that "believe" in Christ..... ??
proginoskes 02-Dec-06, 19:05	pawn yes Jesus can be God too. so what if it was written before the incarnation?
proginoskes 02-Dec-06, 19:06	qiwi my mistake . . . Yes, Heaven is for those who through faith accept Jesus Christ
proginoskes 02-Dec-06, 19:08	pawn I've been through this already Jesus was 100% man, 100% God - this necessaitates what appears to be two separate people through the eyes of our space/time within which we live. The paradox only appears so, because God is always also existing outside of our space/time. God is one and both - Same. One God.
Pages:  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Next »

GameKnot: play chess online, chess teams, online chess puzzles, monthly chess tournaments, Internet chess league, chess clubs, free online chess games database and more.