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From	Message
tennesseehiker 03-Jan-11, 01:49	24. h7 h7 gets my vote.
hityerclock 03-Jan-11, 06:15	Continuation after 25.Bf6 Unless I've set up the starting position incorrectly on my chess board, 24...b5 25.Bf6 Bg6 26.f5 Qxf5 27.Bxg7 Kg7 28.e6+ Qf6 27.Qxf6+ Kxf6 28.exd7, White wins the exchange and I don't see any real compensation for black. What am I missing?
caknight 03-Jan-11, 11:20	Continuation 25.Bf6 In my analysis I had 24.f4 Rc7 25.Bf6 Bg6 26.f5 Qxf5 27.Bxg7?? Kxg7 28.e6+ Qf6. After 24.f4 b5 25.Bf6 Bg6 26.f5 Qxf5 27.Bxg7 Qe6 not taking the bishop.
hityerclock 03-Jan-11, 14:38	25.Bf6 ... Ah! That's where I went wrong, I didn't consider 24...Rc7, only 24...b5. But 24...Rc7 25.Rd3 wins our d-pawn, no?
caknight 03-Jan-11, 19:39	25.Rd3 24.f4 Rc7 25.Rd3 Bg6!
mike230457 04-Jan-11, 05:49	25.Rf1 My vote goes to: 25.Rf1
hityerclock 04-Jan-11, 17:36	24... Bg6 24.f4 Rc7 25.Rd3 Bg6 26.Qxd5 Bxd3 27.Qxe6 fxe6 28.cxd3 followed by 29.Bxe6+ and material is even, but unbalanced: white has two passed pawns (d3 & e5) for the exchange, plus the bishop pair and the LSB has been activated. I don't like the black side of that.
doji 05-Jan-11, 00:39	2 votes for 24... Rc7 (sacul219, caknight) 3 votes for 24... Bg6 (hityerclock opengames, andywm) 1 vote for 24... b5 (opengames) 1 vote for 24... h7 (tennesseehiker) 1 vote for 24... Rf1 (miodrags) That is what I figured out. Can anyone take a look if his choice is pointed out right here? I won't post a move for +/- 24 hours. If nothing changes, it will be 24... Bg6.
doji 06-Jan-11, 00:46	So 24... Bg6 it shall be.
sacul219 06-Jan-11, 20:05	Just a thought but see Qb6, it ensures either way we retrieve his Queen, which to me is situated conveniently for him, but not so for us, halting profession of the horse forward, and other minor moves, which, when the lines are developed, turn into a more comfortable end game for us. I haven't quite followed all the lines through, I haven't had the time of yet, but I know that removing that Queen from the board, or even that square, can open up our second Rook, and give us a bit more to play with. Hope it doesn't sound stupid   Lucas
sacul219 06-Jan-11, 20:05	Progression, sorry.
opengames 06-Jan-11, 21:09	24...Qb6 Lucas, All move ideas are welcome, and your idea does not sound stupid. Please tell us your ideas for future moves that you want to share, and before the vote is settled so your vote can be counted!
andywm 07-Jan-11, 17:41	Nice thought Sacul, it's a decent suggestion and one I didn't consider.....could have been interesting but I don't think they would have exchanged Q's
sacul219 08-Jan-11, 01:22	Yeah, if it wasnt dependant on them exchanging Queens, it might be stronger, but the thing is, the Queen becomes pinned against the King, so essentially they have to exchange or just cover the Queen. Anyway, regardless, thats my vote. Qb6 Thanks guys for the feedback (:
hityerclock 08-Jan-11, 10:46	...Qb6? While ...Qb6 does force a queen exchange, it does nothing to slow down white's initiative. If we had played 24...Qb6 then after 25.Qxb6 Nxb6, it looks like white has a winning advantage, and an obvious and effective plan: push the e & f pawns. For example, after 26.f5! there's no good response to counter the coming 27.Bf6/28.e6/etc. White creates a very strong passed e pawn, and has a grip on the dark squares with his B on f6. If we play (after 26.f5!), for example, 26...Kf8 to get out of the x-ray, then the simple 27.Rd3 threatening 28.g4 is a real problem for us. Our current position isn't so bad. White has the initiative, but we've been very careful not to create weaknesses in our position that they can exploit, and we have good chances for counterplay on the Q-side. Barring a blunder by one side or the other, I expect the game to end in a draw.
doji 10-Jan-11, 00:18	Deleted by doji on 17-Jan-11, 01:01.
sacul219 10-Jan-11, 05:43	Good idea hityerclock, thanks. Maybe then b5? It stops a Ba4, and if he moves pawn a4, then A6 will cover that. Of course if he chooses not to move the e pawn, a5 nd then a4 could becomes options for further moves. I think if we try to slow things down on the Queen side there could be an endgame in this that bodes well for us
hityerclock 10-Jan-11, 08:11	25...b5 Let's gain some space on the Q-side, and shut down the white LSB once and for all. White will obviously play 26.Qf2 next, so let's start thinking about what we want to do after that so it doesn't come as a surprise.
andywm 10-Jan-11, 16:59	lots of moves or....Rc8 or Kna5 to move his B...the other suggestion of b5 and whites moves Qf2, then our response is Qf5. Think about the other 2 suggestions.....
opengames 10-Jan-11, 18:01	Thinking out loud... hityerclock's analysis gives the probable continuation by White; 26.Qf2 to support 27.f5. If we don't prepare for that with 25...b5 or 25...Na5, our d5 pawn will lose a protector when our Queen moves to f5. Bishops are more valuable than Knights in the endgame (in theory), so trading our Knight for White's light-squares Bishop is good to consider. However, trading on b3 will allow White to rid himself of his a- & c-file isolani, so I prefer avoiding a trade in this case. My move: 25...b5.
caknight 10-Jan-11, 20:26	25...Rc7 25...Rc7. I would like to keep our pawn island at a7 b7 intact, opengames is wright about not trading our knight for the light square bishop. Bishops are better than knights in all except blocked pawn positions. As the defender we should keep our pawns on the same color as our bishop. If white plays 26.Qf2 we have Be4 instead of Qf5. After 27.f5 there is Qb6 taking the queens off the board.
doji 13-Jan-11, 12:37	It seems that 25... b5 is the most mentioned move, so, I will post that move.
sacul219 16-Jan-11, 13:24	...? Doji, have they made a move yet?
doji 17-Jan-11, 00:59	Yes, I just didn't have time this weekend... too much parties going on - lol!! Watch it, here it comes:
doji 17-Jan-11, 01:01	Deleted by doji on 24-Jan-11, 23:00.
sacul219 17-Jan-11, 13:16	Hehe, nice! Am i being naive in suggesting 26. f5 or 26. Qf5? Those to me seem like the moves that I would play in this situation, and i now see hityerclocks analyis more clearly
hityerclock 17-Jan-11, 14:47	*not* 26...f5 I need to analyze this position on a real chess board, but one thing I do see is that 26...f5? 27.exf6e.p. followed by 28.f5 and white wins. Still, we need to stop 27.f5. That leaves 26...Qf5 and 26...Bf5. On first look I'm leaning towards 26...Qf5, but the position is complicated enough to merit working out some continuations for both.
hityerclock 17-Jan-11, 15:35	Some analysis after 26...Qf5 26... Qf5. Black's Q is the obvious target in this position. If it can be forced to move, white plays f5 with a winning position. There are two ways to attack the queen: play Rg5, or play g4. 27.Bh4 - threatening 28.Rg5. We cannot allow 28.Rg5, for example: 27...Re1 28.Rg5 Qe6 27.f5 or 28...Qe4 29.Re1, white wins. So 27...h6 is forced. Now, 26...h6 27.Rd3 threatening 28.g4. But now we have a square for the bishop: 27...Bh7 28.g4 Qe6! Now 28.f5 has less bite, the Rd3 is under attack, and we can play ...Be4. I think black is OK here. But what if white reverses the threats? 27.Rd3 - threatening 28.g4. We cannot allow 28.g4, for example 27...Rc1 28.g4 Qe5 (forced) 29.Re1 and black can resign. So 27...h5 is forced. Now, 26...Qf6 27.Rd3 h5 28.Bh4! threatening 29.Rd3 and 30.Rg5. We can try retreating our bishop again: 28...Bh6 29.Rg3. Now white has *two* threats, 30.Rg5 (winning the h5 pawn) *and* 30.Bf6 g6 and our B is forever stuck on h7. If we don't retreat the bishop, then 30.Rg5 followed by 31.f5 is winning for white. So 26...Qf5 is no good.
andywm 17-Jan-11, 15:35	my vote is... Bf5..this blocks his p and stops us from being forked by their p on our Q and B. We have plenty of answers as well whatever white does next.
hityerclock 17-Jan-11, 16:12	Some analysis after 26...Bf5 26...Bf5. The bishop is a much better blockading piece than the queen. White doesn't really have a good way to make this bishop move. If it does move, it can go to e4. But white does have 27.Bf6, and now 27...g6 is forced. So white has created some horrible weaknesses on our dark squares. This looks bad, but how does white exploit it? The obvious try is to move the Rook from g3, play Qh4->Qh6 and mate next move. But if the Rook moves anywhere except e3, we can play ...Qb6! pinning the Q and forcing an exchange (Sacul219's idea from before). So that leaves the Rook sacrifice: 26...Bf5 27.Bf6 g6 28.Re3 Ne3 29.Qh4. But now we can still play 29...Qb6! and if 30.Qh6 Ng4+! black wins. What if White moves his K? 26...Bf5 27.Bf6 g6 28.Re3 Ne3 29.Qh4 Qb6 30.Kh1 Nxf1 31.Qh6 Ng3+ and 32...Nh5 - black wins. or 26...Bf5 27.Bf6 g6 28.Re3 Ne3 29.Qh4 Qb6 30.Kh2 Nxf1+ 31.Kh1 Qe3 32.Qh6 Ng3+ followed by 33...Nh5 - black wins. What if white gets rid of that pesky N first, then plays Re3 (If the R goes anywhere else, we play ...Qb6 and force the Q exchange). 26...Bf5 27.Bf6 g6 28.Bxc4 dxc4 29.Re3 Qb6! 30.Qh4 Qxe3+ 31.Kh2 (or Kh1 h5 32.Qg5 Be4 threatening Qxh3#) h5 32.Qg5 Rd2! What if white gets rid of the N, and moves the K off the a7-g1 diagonal, then moves the rook? 26...Bf5 27.Bf6 g6 28.Bxc4 dxc4 29.Kh1 but now we have time to play 29...h6! and later ...Kh7 when needed. I think black is OK in here. We're certainly better off than after 26...Qf5.
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