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CHESS PUZZLE, FEN 8/8/6p1/6p1/6p1/6k1/6P1/2BBK2R w K -

Added by:kingdawar
Added on:24-Apr-09
Description:
Difficulty:
chess puzzle 8/8/6p1/6p1/6p1/6k1/6P1/2BBK2R w K -
Attempts:898
Solved:81 (9%)
White to move, mate in 4
Comments: (13) » LastGo to last comment
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sirissac
08-Apr-13, 01:44

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Easy enough
... just not to be confused with this position (puzzle #96971).
123cro
08-Apr-13, 01:50

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After castling everything seems to be easy, still, since the prehistory of the game in fact isn't known , it isn't quite justified to suppose such a possibility - in circumstances of a real game the position most likely evidents that castling isn't available. It is but tricky
mcmarkov
08-Apr-13, 04:42

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you never wait castling in a game end
josep_85
08-Apr-13, 07:18

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Tricky
It must be one option saying if castle is avaliable or not.
bb_cb_love_pizza
08-Apr-13, 15:17

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You can see whether castling is possible by leftclicking the King and looking at the moves available.
Won't necessarily come to everyone's mind right off the bat though, that's right.

However, if you have in mind that this is a PUZZLE and is not supposed to have anything in common with an actual Game but the (theoretical) possibility of the position to happen in a game, it is a regulation for puzzles that castling is ALWAYS possible given the proper position of King and Rook.
Only exception to this is when you can prove in retrospective that one of those 2 pieces (King, Rook) actually HAD to move to reach this actual position.

cheers
jack_dragon
08-Apr-13, 16:00

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@bb_cb_love_pizza
Couldn't agree more.
doctorb
08-Apr-13, 16:11

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Tricky
As everyone here says, castling isn't the first thing you think of haha, I had to actually do what bb_cb_love_pizza said, then I noticed I could move the king two spaces... I just did the castle and still next move was hard haha...
nice tricky tricky puzzle, one should never stop considering EACH POSSIBLE move haha, especially with few pieces.
It did take quite a while though...
sirissac
08-Apr-13, 19:26

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prehistory and theoretical possibility...
I have to disagree with both understandings of a puzzle. A chess puzzle is simply a chess position with a forced mate. It's my understanding that the position need not be attainable through play of any kind, and so has neither prehistory nor theoretical possibility. That said, a "true" Chess position is described only by knowing whose turn it is, and whether castling or en passant are possible. So a true Chess position is (ironically) not the same as the position of the pieces on the board.

@bb_cb_love_pizza:
"it is a regulation for puzzles that castling is ALWAYS possible given the proper position of King and Rook"?
I've never heard of this, nor any entity assigning regulations on Chess puzzles. I'd be very interested know who/what says this. But I personally think that its a bad regulation to say the least, after all, if a puzzle is in print (like in the Westminster Gazette 96 years ago) you can't click on the piece and see if white can castle, and proving whether or not its possible that white can or cannot is computationally much harder than the problem in question.
123cro
09-Apr-13, 06:58

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to sirissac
It's for sure that you're quite right - every puzzle is really to be considered in admitting all variants generally possible - without any imaginations concerning the possibility of the situation taking place in actual games. Just it seems to be a bit unnatural, you may like it or not, - but it is useful in urging of unexpected turns. What I wanted to say: the difficulty of the puzzle in this particular case in great extend was depended on the unreal situation. Best wishes
bb_cb_love_pizza
09-Apr-13, 07:03

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@ sirissac

It is harder indeed, to prove the (im)possibility of moves like castling (and "en passant")
but there are some puzzles where the solution is fairly obvious in terms of finding mating moves if it wasnt for the problem of working out which of those moves is allowed and which ones are not.
For example i once saw a puzzle where you had to work out which one of your enemy pawns can be taken en passant to mate your opponent correctly (Using the wrong pawn would result in an impossible move and therefore be wrong, or would even make you lose the game).

You do not necessarily have to like that kind of a puzzle, if you dont like having to look at a problem that way, but that doesnt mean that it is a bad regulation, i know some people who enjoy those problems quite a lot because it forces you to approach the puzzle differently.

However, maybe i do not understand this quote correctly:
"But I personally think that its a bad regulation to say the least, after all, if a puzzle is in print (like in the Westminster Gazette 96 years ago) you can't click on the piece and see if white can castle"

That is exactly why there are regulations that work out whether it is possible or not. The cases of castling not being available are very, very rare however. With that said, the only problem for you will be to actually realize that king and rook are in position to castle.
And giving that away by a note (like "castling is possible")with the puzzle printed would most likely make the puzzle extremely trivial, as castling is not too often possible in Puzzles when not being part of the solution.

To those regulations and the example i mentioned above: Castling is ALWAYS possible unless proven not to be possible, en passant is NEVER possible unless it can be proven that the opposition moved that specific pawn being captured from rank 2 to rank 4 with his very last move.
sirissac
09-Apr-13, 08:46

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Thanks for the answers. I personally liked the puzzle; and having already calculated almost every other move I knew exactly what I missed when the hint highlighted the King.

@bb_cb_love_pizza:
As for it being a bad regulation, I'm not talking about saying you can always castle. It's the 'unless it can be proven otherwise' part I don't like.
What I mean is that it's masking a different problem altogether. Regardless of how rarely it is impossible, you can't assume castling (under this regulation) without some retrospective consideration.
So your no longer attempting to deliver mate in x moves (the easier problem), but rather performing some sort of retrospective examination of all proceeding positions (the harder problem). That question has less to do with the playing of Chess, and more to do with logic and calculation. So it seems to subvert the idea of a Chess Puzzle, for the sake of a more abstract Logic Puzzle involving a Chess board.
I've seen a puzzle like this (a retrospective one) a long time ago, but it asked something like 'White to move, is it legal to castle?'. This kind of problem can indeed be clever, but its distinguished the problem. Where as a puzzle saying "White to move, mate in x" and involving castling is obscured under that regulation.



fredkohn
16-Apr-20, 13:44

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it took this puzzle to get Lutz Neweklowski to create a puzzle that was not a mirror of the original. Because if he had mirrored this, White would not have been able to castle!
snailmate
20-Mar-26, 09:16

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The oldest trick in the book - and I fell for it. ;(

The comment about puzzle 96971 should have given it away. That one has exactly the same pieces in the same positions, which leaves only one possible way in which they can be different! Namely, different history.
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