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GameKnot related: option to not count timeouts
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3253 10-Mar-13, 23:36 |
 option to not count timeoutsAnother suggestion is to indicate in the past games history which games have been won or lost by timeouts. Currently there is no way to find these that I'm aware of other than searching each individual result. |
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tactical_abyss 11-Mar-13, 07:31 |
Deleted by tactical_abyss on 11-Mar-13, 07:48.
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tactical_abyss 11-Mar-13, 07:47 |
Deleted by tactical_abyss on 11-Mar-13, 08:20.
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tactical_abyss 11-Mar-13, 08:20 |
3253.... 1.)If a game times-out,you can agree to have the game reinstated from that timed-out position. So there does not need to be an option to "not count",but the player that won through the time-out must agree to continue the game.But yes,I can see your point.The player would lose rating points in the initial time-out.He could also lose double rating points,if he ends up losing the game again from a mate.But then,their are the time-allocation rules,just like in many sports. 2.) Also,not allowing a time-out to "count" would be opening up "abuse". If a player was about to lose a game,he could just time-out of all his games to avoid losing any rating points,atleast for the time being.I've seen cases where the opponent was about to lose,got reinstated and the other opponent timed-out!And then the first opponent did NOT reinstate the game!Now thats funny! 3.) There is now the rating floor to prevent you from falling too far in time-out cases. 4.)Putting the rating floor aside for the moment,some players actually do,indeed,need to lose points as a form of penalty.Its a good way to teach some players to pay more attention to their games.There are,indeed players that do NOT give a hoot about timing-out at all.I've seen this many times,including,shall we say players in the master levels.On the other hand,yes,there are players that could not help timing-out due to many factors in life,but then they also could have "postponed"their games.And for those who have an "excuse"for not being able(or wanting to)postpone their games,then you can always do as #1 above,and reinstate the game for that opponent. 5.)Personally,I have seen opponents online and still time-out.Now,I had one player tell me that he really wasen't online,that he simply did not log out and/or was away from the computer.Well that is the case sometimes,but sometimes opponents simply lie to make you feel bad,so that you reinstate them into the game again.I have personally "caught"players in this lie!!!How you ask?I observed my opponent actually making moves in some of his "ongoing"games right at the same time his clock was about to time-out with me.I went into his onging games and seen he was advancing his moves. So he lied.I was going to reinstate his game,then I thought to myself.....no,not if he disrespects me by lying.And as to the excuse of being away from the computer to do this and that and change the baby's diaper,I don't feel that is a good enough excuse.In corresp chess,one must "make"the time and room in their life for the game play.Yes,life is more important,but their are rules in chess as well as life.One must make time allocations for both.If the world chess champion walked away from the board without saying a word(without postponing his game due to some personal thing),you can't expect the opponent to not win by time default and keep sitting there for hours or days.Rule must be followed,or abuse can occur,just like in # 2 above.Let me add,that some players simply take on way too many games,like 80-100 games for example.I have lost count on how many players I advised against this because they will time-out more easily with that game load or not be able to play as good as they could quality wise due to NOT being able to spend enough time on a game.I advised playing perhaps,no more than 5 to 10 games max.And indeed,the time-outs do occur from these players not listening to me.So will I reinstate this type of player?Answer:NO.Call it my lesson proved. 6).Also,some players time-out for many reasons and do it on purpose.They WANT to lose points.Why?Team/league manipulation games.I'm not in teams/leagues,but I have heard this from some players in the forums.Other reasons are more psychological.Some players want to lose down to their rating floor again,as much as a 100 points or so,so that they can begin to win again against lesser rated opponents that would not have challenged them had they been 2100 instead of 2010.If you think this in untrue,think again! 7.)Some players WANT the opposite!They WANT their opponent to time-out for easy points!So,if this option was taken away,you would get more complaints than you can imagine. Rules are set up in corresp chess for a reason.Personally,if I see my opponent using up all his allotted time in a game and taking forever to move(which is legal)and waits to the last minute to move all the time... I feel that this opponent needs to teach himself a lesson in proper time-allocation or yes,needs to time-out!And no,I will not reinstate the game.Not in the case where he is constantly waiting till the last minute or second to move. As to finding which games have timed-out as an option,i'm not against that.I would say,however,statistically,most games time-out in 10 moves or less,so when you go into a players past history of games and you see that this opponent won in 10-15 moves,there is a very high probability that it was due to a time-out.So all you have to do is rapidly scan down a players profile of games and look for the shorter ones without going into the game right away.Again time-outs also occur later in the game as well,but even more do not,I believe. |
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3253 11-Mar-13, 13:52 |
speaking of wins Thank you for your detailed response. To clarify, I am speaking of wins, not loses. I'm in total agreement that timeouts should be recorded and affect the rating of the player who times out. Regarding reinstatement, I mistakenly agreed to continue a timed out game a week ago, and immediately wish I'd not done so. I thought it would reinstate the same game for the benefit of that player, but see now that it started a new game, which I didn't want to do, especially as I'm playing too many games already (due to GK signing me up for a duplicate tournament). Also, the player is taking forever to move. I vow to never reinstate one again! "I've seen cases where the opponent was about to lose,got reinstated and the other opponent timed-out! And then the first opponent did NOT reinstate the game!Now thats funny!" That is quite humorous, and would be sad if it happened to me! It would teach me a lesson. What I was suggesting is for the winning player to have the option to not include games won by timeouts, the same as games of 2 moves or less, as I feel they give a distorted view of the number of wins. However, this is probably not feasible, and would cause more confusion and trouble than it's worth. Seeing the total number of games won (or lost) by timeouts, however, would be helpful. They are already shown as a percentage of the games played by the timing out player, but there is no way to see the number or percentage when a player wins by timeout, and which could be shown in a number of ways. My stats/profile: A line that shows the number and percent of games won by timeouts Past game history An apostrophe after "won", i.e. "won`", and which is sortable, or an extra column Rivals One or more apostrophes after the wins, or an extra column |
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tactical_abyss 11-Mar-13, 14:32 |
Well with regards to your clarification,timed-out games being included as a win ect ect....no that won't happen....well,I doubt it.But as I mentioned,i'm all for the suggestion for some kind of specific list of win and losses by time-outs and those specific games by opponent name.I think overall,however,it might possibly be a program nightmare for GK.They probably would want to direct their developmental resources in other directions. |
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3253 11-Mar-13, 14:41 |
here's an example Timeouts: 35 (9.9%) Average time per move: 16 hours Longest winning streak: 14 Longest losing streak: 12 A suggestion is to add a line such as the following, where appropriate, which would probably be easy for GK to do. Games won by timeouts: 12 (24.5%) |
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tactical_abyss 11-Mar-13, 14:53 |
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tactical_abyss 31-Mar-13, 05:09 |
Deleted by tactical_abyss on 31-Mar-13, 05:19.
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tactical_abyss 31-Mar-13, 05:19 |
I was just looking over some past forum posts and noticed something that perplexes me. I copied and pasted what you wrote from above: "Regarding reinstatement, I mistakenly agreed to continue a timed out game a week ago, and immediately wish I'd not done so. I thought it would reinstate the same game for the benefit of that player, but see now that it started a new game, which I didn't want to do, especially as I'm playing too many games already (due to GK signing me up for a duplicate tournament). Also, the player is taking forever to move. I vow to never reinstate one again!"Unquote. I do not understand how that could possibly happen?If you reinstated the game properly,your NOT supposed to get a "new" game that starts with all the pieces in the original position,but the old game in the reinstated position is supposed to appear.So,the only thing that I can see that you had done was to start a new game,not click on where it stated ..."would you like to reinstate the game"? And besides,if a totally new game appeared,you could easily cancel that game in less than 3 moves if you made some kind of game click on error or you simply changed your mind,or the GK computer made some kind of error.So as to not ever reinstating a game again based upon what happened....you should really try and reinstate a game again in the future if possible,to make sure you have properly reinstated the old game correctly.Again,if you have clicked on the appropriate places to "reinstate",then your NOT supposed to get a totally new and fresh game!And if it happens again,just cancel that new game and report it to GK. The only thing I can think of,is that you waited too long a period of time,maybe more than the amount of game move time and then a reinstatement might not have been possible?That i'm not sure of(how it works)...but even then,if a game "reinstatement"option appeared,it should have accepted the old position.If it did not appear,well,then you simply started a new game by yourself,not reinstated an old game. So that perplexes me and i'm rarely perplexed! TA |
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3253 31-Mar-13, 08:08 |
Deleted by 3253 on 31-Mar-13, 08:09.
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3253 31-Mar-13, 08:10 |
explanation Thanks for your comment. If only I could perplex you in a game! haha By "new game" I meant the game was no longer in the tournament. I had thought the player's request was to reinstate the game "in the tournament", so the player wouldn't lose a game by default. However, that was not the case as the player lost that point anyway, deservedly so, and a "new" (i.e. not in the tournament) game was re/started. Once the game was restarted, I realized it was no longer in the tournament and that it was a mistake to agree to reinstate the game. Yes, the game does say "reinstated." I was not so clear as to what was happening or would have cancelled the game in less than 3 moves. The ironic thing was that after I so graciously reinstated the game, the opponent who is playing 20 games, turned out to take almost 2 days for every move (this was in the first 5 moves), and then went on a 14 day vacation! I shall not reinstate a game ever again. This, and GK entering me in an extra tournament the last time, have caused me to decide to not play anymore games for the forseeable future. They take a lot of work and time, I'm getting tired of them and they're just not fun or interesting anymore. I'm going to focus on chesstempo tactics as they're interesting, they give me something to practice and learn, and I can see my improvements. Best regards P.S. Now I see why you delete many comments, as there is no edit function. |
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tactical_abyss 31-Mar-13, 08:53 |
ahhhh...tournament vs regular games.Well,I have no idea how the GK tourneys are run or reinstatment games,if possible in tourney games,ect ect.All I know is that a game can be reinstated(regular,non tourney game)if the opponent times-out,BUT your opponent will lose points for the first time-out regardless of a new reinstated game....and can lose twice that amount in points if he loses or time-out AGAIN from that reinstated position.But a "reinstated game"is not supposed to be a new game with opening postions,but old positions from the last game.Its really not very bright for an opponent to want to reinstate a game anyway,unless he really has a winning edge,because I see no logic in wanting to get an ice pick jabbed into you twice by losing twice and then getting double points taken from from the player through a reinstatement then loss again,and has a bad position or a few pieces minus on the board.Better to play through in an unrated game from that position if one wants to use the excuse of ...."learning". So,tourney games cannot be reinstated in a time-out with getting back the old position at the moment of the time-out?Yes,no?Not that it matters to me much,since I do not play tourney games on GK,but i'm curious. Yes,i'm not the greatest typist on GK and sometimes I want to retype something,correct or add but I cannot.So,yes,I delete and repost.I do wish there was an edit function after it is posted,but unfortunately not. Yes,sometimes moving right away is better in respects to your opponent timing-out as you say,but sometimes also stalling longer sets up a psychology of parallel/equal stall which the other opponent subconsciously "copies" giving him "more"time in his stall mind and then he loses even faster track of time! |
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tactical_abyss 31-Mar-13, 09:07 |
1.Choose an opponent that has atleast 40 or more games going on at one time. 2.This same opponent should have atleast 10 % or more in time-outs 3.Start the game about 3 weeks to a month before Christmas,Thanksgiving or New Years. 4.And play this opponent in a 2 day/move game or 3 days at the most. Blend all the ingredients in a blender,sing a nice tune and...presto!You will have created a high probability scenario of some nice juicy free points from that opponent timing-out....atleast with a higher chance of that happening!And do NOT allow a reinstatement!Use the "i'm too busy excuse"!Ha ha! TA |
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3253 31-Mar-13, 09:58 |
Yes I think it was the same position, just not in the tourney anymore. I also like an edit function and am surprised there isn't one here. At the least they could put a 10 minute or so limit on edits, though I like at least a day as this is helpful for clarifications later on, though it depends on the forum. Thanks for your comments! |
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sirissac 02-Apr-13, 10:27 |
Thinking bigger... The only problem is, I imagine people would want this to be a optional column (or as an optional replacement of the win/loss column), but I doubt the past games page supports any optional columns. Also, concerning the not-counting wins, there is still the possibility for abuse. You could be demolishing someone, and they could time-out without letting your rating increase. While that is very rude (their rating still drops just as much), it would be incentive to some to timeout, rather than resign lost games. So I think that is a bad idea. Also, if one player gain is not the other players loss, you may be messing up the ELO system. |
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3253 04-Apr-13, 13:37 |
designation of timeouts Shirissac, as you say, not counting wins could be subject to abuse, so that idea can be discarded. I like your idea of identifying the ways that games ended. Those are all great ideas. Thanks. |
