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Chess related: 2 knights Defense Fried Liver Attack
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 2 knights Defense Fried Liver Attack1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.Nxf7 Kxf7 7.Qf3+ Ke6 8.Nc3 Nb4 9.a3 Nxc2+ 10.Kd1 Nxa1 and now 11.Bxd5+ Kd7 12.Nb5 and after Qf5+, # next move. ...Ke7 (one of the 3 squares d7, e7, d6 in which their king must retreat) 12.Qf7+ Kd6 Ne4# ...Kd6 12.Ne4+(the bishop is immune to capture) Kd7 13.Qf5+ and # next. So what sayeth the bloggers here? Is 11.Bxd5+ a great move or what? You could devils advocate the move if you like or maybe find improvements along the line? |
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tactical_abyss 29-Sep-12, 06:27 |
12.Nb5,? Above you wrote 12.Nb5 then you forgot blacks 12th move.You went from 12.Nb5 then jumped to "and after Qf5+". But white does not win but will lose eventually.... and 11.Bxd5 is a terrible move. Here goes from move 11 and whites moves for #12 as you wrote it: 11.Bxd5+,Kd7 12.Nb5 Now from this position,all black has to do is move 12....Qf6 then: 13.Qd3,c6 14.Be4+,Ke7 15.Nc7,Be6 and black maintains a big edge. But even with whites BEST 12th move after 11.Bxd5+,Kd7: 12.Qg4+,Kd6 13.Qb4+,c5 14.Qc4 Black STILL maintains a material and positional advantage above. So,in summary,from move 11.Bxd5,Kd7 regardless of ANY move you can give me from move 12 onward as white,you could not win against me even if you were the world chess champion,or used the strongest chess program in the world.I guarantee it,positively. |
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tactical_abyss 29-Sep-12, 07:15 |
11.Bxd5+,Kd7 12.Qf7+,...... From this point,black is even better off! 12.....Qe7 13.and ANY white move(for move #13) will be curtains for white,or a draw or something,but no big chance at a win. This may not be what you meant,but either way,after 11.Bxd5+,Kd7,there is no good move for white.Actually,backing up to move 11 again for white,whites actual best move should really be: 11.Nxd5!! NOT 11.Bxd5+? At that juncture,black is STILL better off with whites move...(11.Nxd5!!) But only marginally,about a half pawn value,give or take. |
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updated 2 knights Defense Fried Liver Attack 11.Bxd5+ Kd7 (one of 3 escape squares e7, d7 and d6 that their king could go to) 12.Qf5+ Ke7 (one of 3 escape squares e7, e8 and d6) 13.Qh7+ Kd6 Ne4# 11. ...Kd6 12.Nb5+ (the bishop is immune) Kc5 13.d4+ Kxb5 14.Qd3+ and we have their king cornered.. 11. ...Ke7 12.Qf7+ Kd6 13.Ne4#.. 12. ...Ke8 13.Qf7# 12. ...Kd6 13.Nb5+ Kc5 14.d4+ Kxb5 15.Qd3+ Kb6 and we have their king cornered.. 14. ...Kxd5 15.Nc3+ Kd6 16.Qxe5+ Kc6 17.d5+ and their king is cornered.. 15. ...and so with their other moves..their king gets cornered.. |
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tactical_abyss 01-Oct-12, 10:55 |
some master responses.... 11.Bxd5+,Kd7 12.Qf5+,Kd6 13.Nb5+,Kxd5!! After this black maintains a winning edge,regardless of whites oncoming Queen checks. Your 3rd line above and my responses: 11.Bxd5+,Kd6 12.Nb5+,Kc5 13.d4+,Kxb5 14.Qd3+,Kb6(blacks King IS NOT cornered,although it may look it) and with whites BEST possible move for #15: 15.Bc4,exd4! 16.Qb1,Qh4 17.Qxa1,Qg4+ and so forth.Black still maintains a winning edge. Your 4th line above is correct with 11.....Ke7 and then later 13.Ne4+mate,but I would certainly not make that 11.....Ke7 move. Other "possible" moves for white: 11.Bxd5+,Kd7 12.Qf5+,Kd6 13.Nb5+,Kxd5+black maintains strong edge or 11.Bxd5,Kd7 12.Qf5+,Kd6 13.Qd3 or any move for white still maintains a decent edge for black. or 11.Bxd5,Kd6 12.Nb5+,Kc5 13.Bxb7,Qd7 14.Bxc8,Qxc8 and black maintains a decent edge yet,and is not losing. Summary: I have not checked all your possible continuations above,but your 2nd and 3rd lines above I refute as still highly advantageous or winning for black.Either way,as long as blacks 11th move remains at 11.....Kd6 OR Kd7 and NO OTHER move(and I repeat,no other move for blacks 11th move),then black WILL maintain either an edge or winning edge and blacks King IS NOT cornered.Proof?Sure! I'll play any move you can muster up from the position: 11.Bxd5+,Kd7 or 11.Bxd5+,Kd6 However,my move would actually be: 11.Bxd5,Kd7... for this is much better.11.....Kd6 would not be my best choice since it would still give black an edge,but a small edge(even with 12.Nb5+),but either way it does not lead to a win for white.It may equalize,however by the endgame. Hope this helps? Hopefully I did not make any errors above,but I still maintain that(for me atleast)that 11.Bxd5+,Kd7 maintains a great edge for black and you will not corner my King or mate me. and 11.Bxd5+,Kd6 is not as good for black due to advancing King exposure(not a smart move),but still maintains a small edge for black.It might draw,but I still believe I will probably win,even with the 11....Kd6 move. |
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tactical_abyss 01-Oct-12, 12:21 |
Where I went with the line 11.Bxd5+,Kd7 12.Qf5+,Kd6 13.Nb5+,Kxd5+ ....there is no +(check mark) for 13....Kxd5 I'm doing this from memory,not using a board,so being tired today does not help. But you all get the idea. |
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then 14.Qd3+ and you lost the queen.. "11.Bxd5+ Kd6 12.Nb5+ Kc5 13.d4+ Kxb5 14.Qd3+ Kb6 (blacks King IS NOT cornered,although it may look it) and with whites BEST possible move for #15: 15.Bc4..." How about 15.Qe3+ Kb5 16.a4+ Kxa4 17.Qa3+ and # next move.. "Other "possible" moves for white: 11.Bxd5+ Kd7 12.Qf5+ Kd6 13.Nb5+ Kxd5 black maintains strong edge " see above 1st post.. |
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sorry made an error..correction below. 14.Qd3+ Kb6 (blacks King IS NOT cornered,although it may look it) and with whites BEST possible move for #15: 15.Bc4..." How about 12.Nb5+ Kc5 13.b4+ Kxa4 14.a4+ Kxa4 17.Qa3+ and # next move.. 14.Kxb4 has not yet analyzed but am willing to bet it would be very easy for white to get the winning line.. |
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tactical_abyss 02-Oct-12, 15:35 |
Way too much chess script on this page!Now to back up a bit and to simplify: You can give me a dozen scenarios to mate black,but I am giving you just 2 replys for black that would not mate a strong player and here they are: Either 11.Bxd5,Kd7 or 11.Bxd5,Kd6 and that was two of the original "options"for black as you noted in the beginning of this string. Now from either of these positions,only the second one 11...Kd6 can produce a 12.Nb5+ for white,so lets go ONLY with that,even though I would not move 11....Kd6 for it is weaker than 11...Kd7,but lets go with ONLY 11....Kd6 ok? Now: 11.Bxd5,Kd6 12.Nb5+,Kc5 13.b4+,Kb6 and black still maintains a material advantage and good position,regardless of some King exposure. I have no idea where you are getting a 13.Kxa4,for that cannot exist.If you start over and move the pieces EXACTLY as you have in the beginning of your first post it should look like this after MY move 11: Now,after 12.Nb5+,Kc5 13.b4+,Kb6 then it will look like this: So,thats all i'm WILLING to move if you go by 12.Nb5+ and 13.b4+ As to any other moves,I simply will not allow the other scenarios you present to happen for black,if I was playing this game for real.And as to my move that I would have done if i was the real opponent here,11.....Kd7,well,you have my responses to that above. Again and in summary,whites MISTAKE would be to move 11.Bxd5+in the first place!Infact,alot of databases will give that move a "?",so thats a big hint to stay away from it!.The best databases will show that 11.Nxd5!! is definitely the way to go!Two "!!"is always better than a "?". Well,i'm out of here hamis.You can suggest a million ways to mate black any way you want in this game you posted,but this senior master still maitains that after 11....Kd7 or 11.....Kd6 your NOT going to mate tactical_abyss!!!!!!!!Why?Because I simply will not follow your lines above that would lead black into a disadvantage,thats why.I will say that with 11....Kd6(the weaker move)it is possible with superb play,that a player MIGHT get a draw against me,but still,not a mate.But with the move I would have made 11.....Kd7 a draw with me would be on the remote side,no possibility of defeating me and the chances of me defeating white are next to 100%. Good chess to you! |
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tactical_abyss 02-Oct-12, 16:24 |
Note above in the 2nd diagram that whites Knight is now in danger and must retreat or be defended,and if defended,it will begin to "disengage" white's hold on blacks King.So,logically,white in most master scenario's will retreat the knight to c3(14.Nc3).After that,black would move 14....c6,threatening whites Bishop.The rest is history for the line you suggested above. Again,as to 11....Kd7.I'm not going to go into that,you have my responses above somewhere in that jungle!And I would massacre white even more with a thousand chainsaws if I moved 11.....Kd7. TA |
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sorry again..correction below.. instead of 13.d4+, white could 13.b4+ Kxb5 14.a4+ Kxa4 15.Qa3+ and # next.. 14...Kxb4 15.Ba3+ Kxa4 Qe4+ and the white king is cornered.. The only consideration for black is to harass the4 white king so much that he would not have time to develop.. |
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ok, got the moves that make Qd3+ questionable.. so how about this line? 11.Bxd5+ Kd7 12.Ne4 (threatening Qf5+ and # next) Qe7 13.d3 h6 (defending their g5) 14.Be3 (pressuring c5.. a much more stronger line seems to be 13.b4 (threatening Nc5+.. |
